Today’s news of George Carlin’s death saddens me.
Was I a fan? No. I believe George’s beligerence against God overshadowed his crude humor. However, I did find myself praying for George’s salvation from time to time; not everyday, but as the Lord brought him to mind via TV, radio, the internet, etc. I was always dismayed that a man of such talent found it necessary to shake his fist in the face of the One who gave it to him. This is a case study in man’s total depravity- unwilling and unable to choose God, rejecting Him at every turn in life.
I did some poking around the web and found this list of other celebrities that claim to be atheist. “Agnostic” and “ambiguous” listings are also found there, but the atheist list is longer. Here, you can click on your celeb of choice to verify something they’ve said, interview they’ve given, etc. that indicated they have fallen victim to atheism. (Not completely sure about the validity of the list, but I’m taking it at face value for now.) If you’re so inclined, why not take some time today to pray for a few of these misguided people? Some on the list would surprise you, others will not. Will God show these people grace before it’s too late? Will God choose to save some of them? Perhaps! We can pray that way! Their salvation is not up to any one person; it’s up to God. It’s not up to me save them, only to pray for their salvation and share the Gospel when possible.
Psalm 14:1 says, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.”
Also, read Romans 1:18-32. Paul has quite a bit to say about those that have foolishly placed themselves against God. (…Claiming to be wise, they became fools…)
One thing I know is that you can be an atheist in life, but not in death! As of June 22, 2008, George Carlin is still very much alive, and you can bet the farm he’s no atheist!! I’ll post more on atheism in general in a later post. Today, my thoughts and yes, my prayers, are with his family and friends. I’m sure he will be missed by those who loved him.
Sola Fide,
David
June 23, 2008 at 4:32 pm
I’m sure his family and friends will be greatly comforted by insinuations that George is in burning hell.
Nice!
Yes, he will be. He already is. And I find it quite tasteless for people to use this tragic event as an opportunity to promote their religious hatred. To do so under the guise of actually caring makes it even sicker, in my opinion.
June 23, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Lottie,
Did I say anything untrue? Was I hateful in what I said? I didn’t mean to be. Truth is truth and I think you’ve missed the real tragedy here- George’s hatred of God and it’s result. Is stating the obvious being hateful? I pray that atheists will reconsider their own stance on God- not religion- God! I’m sorry you’ve missed my whole point here. Thanks for dropping by. Come back often if you can!
DJ
June 24, 2008 at 2:54 am
*sigh*
June 24, 2008 at 6:34 am
Great post David. And very true. I am certain that Carlin is regretting his life-long campaign against his Creator.
And no, Lottie, I don’t say that with a smile or with any degree of happiness so don’t waste your time alleging such.
I wish that no one would refuse to accept the free gift of Grace that God offers, but sadly the majority live for the vapor never considering the eternal.
- The Pilgrim
June 24, 2008 at 6:41 am
More on George Carlin (May 12, 1937 – June 22, 2008)…
Thoughts on George Carlin’s passing, together with some of the better links from around the blogosphere, and my personal favorite picks.
……
June 24, 2008 at 7:13 am
“Did I say anything untrue?”
If you asked George Carlin, by quoting the Bible and talking about the actions of a god…yes, you said many untrue things. At the very least, you’ve made many claims that you have no good reason to believe.
“George’s hatred of God and it’s result.”
What result? The man is dead. He wasn’t struck down by some deity, as much as it might please you to think so. And if he was, your deity certainly takes his time about it, doesn’t he?
“One thing I know is that you can be an atheist in life, but not in death!”
Very true. He died, and now, he’s nothing. You can’t be something when you’re nothing.
June 24, 2008 at 8:26 am
I am saddened by the loss of such a great entertainer. I’d have to say the best thing about Carlin was the fact that he made you think. When you really thought about it, he made some good points. The one quote that always comes to mind when I think of George, and his stance on god/religion is this:
“Religion convinced the world that there’s an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there’s 10 things he doesn’t want you to do or else you’ll go to a burning place with a lake of fire, and suffer and be tormented until the end of eternity. But he loves you!”
And you have trouble seeing why people are atheists and agnostic? I don’t know what happened to him after he died, but I doubt his views on god changed much before he died.
June 24, 2008 at 11:15 am
Right. Because Christians never die of heart failure or anything else. Thanks for clearing that up. Oh wait, you were doing your hell bit again, weren’t you? That is hateful.
You’re not stating the obvious. Simply saying that George is dead would be stating the obvious. You’ve chosen to tag on eternal torment which isn’t obvious to anyone who hasn’t been brainwashed into believing that garbage.
What you fail to understand is that many atheists — George Carlin included — have already reconsidered their stance on God. That’s precisely why they are atheist.
Oh I haven’t missed your point at all. In fact I’ve got it down to the letter. So save you’re condescending, holier-than-thou crap for someone else.
June 24, 2008 at 11:17 am
How about not wasting your time assuming what I may or may not allege. I don’t think you’re smiling about it at all. I think you’re too terrified to be smiling.
Surprise!
June 24, 2008 at 11:58 am
BUT…. Lottie and Morse… and any other professing atheist out there:
WHAT IF I’M RIGHT? I know this thought has to enter your head. Saying something doesn’t exist over and over in louder tones doesn’t make it less true. I believe scripture and what’s obvious to me is what scripture says and how it applies to the human race.
When someone dies (whether it be from natural causes, prematurely or in their sleep when they’re 301 years old) there IS an eternity beyond. You DO have a soul; you WILL face eternity either with Christ or not.
I’m honestly not trying to be condescending here. There are things we know to be true. One is that there IS a God. Another is that HUMANS can never get to God on their own. The best is: Christ came to ransom those of us who believe.
In reading atheist (and agnostic, for that matter) blogs, the overarching theme seems to focus on the here and now with absolutely no regard for eternity. So this is it? This crappy world is the end of the line? Wow. How can anyone believe that?
Please reconsider… or… reconsider AGAIN.. your position on God. NOT RELIGION. Religion has done more to drive people away from God than any other philosophy. The church has it wrong in so many different ways and they abuse people mentally many times. I feel some of you know all too well what I’m talking about. You need the REAL THING… not some man-made, holier-than-thou do’s and don’t’s list.
Carlin didn’t get it. It’s too late for him, but not for you.
~DJ
June 24, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Pascall’s Wager again? You haven’t been doing this very long have you?
What if the Muslims are right? Or Hindus? Or Wiccans? Or Buddhists? Or some sect of Christianity which you do not belong to? What if the real god is Allah? Or Vishnu? Or Thor? Or Krishne?
Getting the picture?
Based on your reasoning, you’d better start believing in every religion or god in the history of mankind just in case one (or more) of them is right.
Neither does saying that something does exist, over and over in louder tones make it any more true. I’m not the one relying on repetition of speech, you are.
And please do recall your own words (quoted above) when you dismiss someone else’s god or religion.
I don’t believe it and it’s not obvious to me. ::shrug::
Says you.
And yet you do it so well.
I agree, but all this god business does not fall in that category. There is a huge difference between believing something and knowing something. If you knew it for a fact, the faith that Christians speak of would not be required.
So humans cannot get to God on their own, and yet said god punishes them for eternity when they don’t get there. How very cruel, sadistic and narcissistic. Nice god ya’ got there.
You mean there’s something after this? Some man who lives in the sky is going to step out onto a cloud one day and some people will float up into the air to join him and others will be sentenced to an eternity of hellfire and brimstone, gnashing of teeth and general torment? Wow! How can anyone believe that?
And, by the way, if you start off with the mindset that this world is total crap, then it’s probably going to be. For you. No wonder you’re desperately seeking something else.
You mean like threatening people with eternal torment if they don’t believe in your god? I think that qualifies as mental abuse.
You’re right. I do need the real thing. Which is why I don’t believe in invisible sky fairies. It’s also why I’m not swayed by cliches and slogans.
More threats and scare tactics aka attempts at mental/emotional abuse.
Really… find some new material. This stuff has been done to death. No pun intended.
June 24, 2008 at 1:26 pm
I’m sorry your experience with a false religion has tainted your idea of God. Let me guess… Catholic upbringing? Windsucking Backwoods Baptist? What? I’d love to know. And I’d like to slap them around!! But in the end, I think your perception is too far skewed to be convinced otherwise.
There’s more to you, Lottie, than here and now. You’ve got to believe. Blessings. ~dj
June 24, 2008 at 1:47 pm
That didn’t take as long as I thought it would – the typical you were raised by “bad” Christians and your perception is too warped to understand that I’m different routine. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that one, and from how many different Christians whose beliefs, by the way, vary quite a bit.
But I didn’t expect you to respond to any of the actual points made. Your kind never does.
And my upbringing has nothing to do with my comments here, as they are directed at your threats of eternal punishment for not believing in your God. My position is based on logic and rational thought, not invisible men in the sky and torturing people for eternity for not finding a god who, by your own statement, they cannot find on their own anyway.
And you say my perception is skewed! Sorry your is so skewed that you’ve missed my entire point here. Ha!
June 24, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Hit a nerve, did I?
June 24, 2008 at 1:59 pm
“There are things we know to be true. One is that there IS a God.”
Please, prove it.
I have to agree with Lottie all the way on this. It all seems a little far fetched to me. I’ve read the bible, I’ve been to church, and I still think it all would make for an exciting movie, just like Lord of the Rings.
June 24, 2008 at 2:04 pm
I am with Lottie. And you DID say something untrue when you refered to Carlin’s “hatred” of a god. How can you hate something you do not believe exists? I know I don’t. Underneath it all, the man possessed more humanity than any Christian I have ever met. And when you pass a judgement like “Carlin didn’t get it,” methinks you just threw one of those big ol’ stones Mr. Jesus told you not to throw. Carlin made the world “think,” while people like you just want everyone to think like sheep.
June 24, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Excellent avoidance skills.
By the way, your “hit a nerve” move is nothing new either.
June 24, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Akanbridge,
Prove the existence of the wind, I’ll prove the existence of God. You first…
~DJ
June 24, 2008 at 2:19 pm
“Prove the existence of the wind, I’ll prove the existence of God. You first… ”
Are you truly that ignorant? (Note, I say ignorant, meaning lacking in knowledge. I want to be clear it is a legitimate question and not an insult.)
Ever hear of a wind gauge? How about a wind sock? Weathervane? Anemometer?
These things measure the speed and effects of wind. Notice how wind, despite being invisible, has measurable effects on the universe.
Your god has no measurable effects on anything.
June 24, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Oh, please. The wind can be measured and quantified; the word “wind” has an actual and specific meaning.
Just because you can’t see it doens’t mean it’s unmeasurable.
Cheap rhetorical tricks don’t make an argument. You really ought to know better at your age; although if your other arguments are anything to go by, you really don’t, which is rather a frightening idea.
June 24, 2008 at 2:30 pm
“WHAT IF I’M RIGHT?”
Let us examine that.
If you’re right, George Carlin spent his life entertaining people. He was by no stretch of the imagination perfect, but he never did anything horrendous and generally left the world with a lot more laughter than it would have had without him.
According to you, George Carlin will be sent to Hell well he will burn and be tortured for all eternity because he did not believe in the existence of your god, and thus could not be forgiven for whatever minor ‘crimes’ he may have committed in life.
He is being punished, eternally, infinitely, for finite things he did and for lack of belief.
If this is the god you claim to believe in and worship, and that god happens to exist, I would not want to worship it. That god is a horribly arbitrary, cruel and unjust creature, and doesn’t deserve my worship. So while I’m sure that hell wouldn’t be fun, it would be preferrable to worshiping the being who created it.
June 24, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Morse,
)
DNA just appeared? Molecules- Random out of nowhere? Symbiosis in nature- by chance? The human body? What about saved marriages? What about terminally ill patients given days to live now having no sign of illness? What about the peace that I have every single night knowing my future is secure? Do you have that? What about the high-school student with a pistol to his head falling to his knees surrendering to God in his bedroom? C.S. Lewis? Atheist who was called by God. I’ve heard many similar stories and even have friends who spent years of their lives atheist that now have more hope than I’ve ever seen! That’s evidence of God. I could go on. (but I’m getting nothing done here at work!
What I hear from you people is that you want a tangible, sit-down-and-eat, person in the flesh before you believe. What about Jesus? You’d argue Jesus was not the son of God, but a great teacher, right? Mr. Wren (if you read some other posts- my favorite atheist at the moment) would argue that Jesus is to be respected and has said some of the wisest things ever uttered by a man- to which I argue that if he was all that wise- wouldn’t his claim of deity negate everything he ever said?
God moves. We respond. Just like the weather vane, wind gauge and sock. You have to admit you’ve NEVER seen the actual wind, only its affects. And therefore you say you “know” the wind exists- but do you? Or would you say that tornadoes are just random, loosely organized destructions randomly occurring at the same time in the same town, etc. See the logic you expect me to swallow?
Look, this debate will only end in eternity for us all. I’m just asking you to really think about what happens after this life. I’m not trying to insult, just make you think. Again… what if I’m right? What if all this is true? What would you do?
~DJ
June 24, 2008 at 2:45 pm
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/172/story_17216_1.html
June 24, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Again:What if the Muslims are right? Or Hindus? Or Wiccans? Or Buddhists? Or some sect of Christianity which you do not belong to? What if the real god is Allah? Or Vishnu? Or Thor? Or Krishne?
But you choose to ignore the question of “what if?” when it doesn’t suit you. You choose to ignore everything that doesn’t line up with your preconceived ideas about life and death. And as long as you keep that up, you cannot be reasoned with.
June 24, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Lottie,
I doubt that there is anything more troubling than trying to defend a belief that you yourself must constantly seek reinforcement to ease your mind. Every one of your responses scream bitterness.
Here is what I do know, you can say there is no God with all the passion you can muster, but in the depths of your being you are not completely convinced.
I assume you will have a cutting response to this comment as you have had to all previous statements that differ from your understanding. That is perfectly fine with me and holds no weight in my life because I have tasted and seen for myself that God is, and that He is good.
June 24, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Here’s my answer, then, Lottie… Every one of those religions can point to a tomb or some shrine and say, “Here lies our leader”… blah blah… whatever. Point is, they’re dead!
We, on the other hand, have documented eye-witnesses that saw Jesus after his resurrection; that ate with Jesus after his resurrection; that walked with Jesus after his resurrection; common men who could have easily admitted to making the whole thing up, who went to the stake, got stoned, hung, beheaded,etc. for the sake of a risen Christ. Where is Buddha, et al? Dead. What if the real god is Vishnu? Then I’ve really missed the mark, haven’t I? I’ll be dealt with severely, I’m sure- because there is definitely an eternity. See, I’m willing to bank my eternal future on Christ even if I’m wrong.
And all those religions you mention require you to DO something IN ORDER to get to heaven; to somehow pull something ‘from within’ before you’re ‘rewarded’ with paradise, with virgins or whatever.
Christianity is THE ONLY belief system that requires you to look OUTSIDE of yourself because of your fallen nature to an external source of salvation: Christ. All my goodness is not from me, but Christ.
Lottie, true Christianity requires nothing of the person prior to regeneration, because spiritually we’re dead! We don’t seek God, we hate God. When, and only when, the Holy Spirit regenerates us can we respond with faith.
THAT is the difference. And that is the truth of God’s Word, which I know means nothing to you right now. But you put all the religions side by side and compare them to Christianity and Christianity stands up every time when the others fail.
Again, were you ever Catholic? Tell me Lottie…I will hold my breath!
June 24, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Wrong again. Christians are not the only ones, or even the first to claim that they worship a living or resurrected god.
No. You have questionable documentation of alleged accounts by alleged people who allegedly claimed to have seen and alleged Jesus after his alleged resurrection. As for people dying for the cause – that is also alleged.
And Christianity doesn’t? Then what’s the problem? I’m all set.
No it’s not. You’re clearly parroting what you hear from the pulpit or wherever. And by the way, it’s the same parroting act that I’ve seen thousands of times before.
Then what are you worried about? It’s not for me to reconsider, as you’ve asked me to do. Maybe the Holy Spirit hasn’t decided to “regenerate” me yet. I’ll just keep taking care of business until it does. K?
Saying it over and over doesn’t make it so.
No, I was never Catholic. Never ever. And like I said, my upbringing has nothing to do with this. I realize that you would love the opportunity to try and psychoanalyze me so you can shift the focus from your faulty arguments to my upbringing, but I am not going to help you do that.
June 24, 2008 at 4:21 pm
I am not defending a belief. I have no belief to defend.
Call it righteous anger. ::smirk::
Have I ever once said “there is no God? No, I have not.
I always find the Catch 22 amusing. You know… if I don’t respond you “win”, if I do respond, it “proves” something altogether different to what my response actually says. It’s transparent and dishonest.
Good. Then you won’t need to bug me anymore, will you?
June 24, 2008 at 4:39 pm
That doesn’t even make sense as a sentence. Given that, I don’t think we need to take your shiny-suited, cheap pyschoanalysis too seriously.
June 24, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I would like to add that I think this debate has gone a bit off course. It started because of the tasteless, insensitive remarks insinuating that George Carlin is in hell. The man hadn’t been dead twenty-four hours. His family still hasn’t buried him. But under the guise of caring, someone felt the need to take a nasty shot like that.
If you believe he is in hell and that nothing can change that now, what good can possibly come from gloating about it? It’s nasty and tacky, and George Carlin, with all his profanity, never came close to being so repulsive.
June 24, 2008 at 8:28 pm
I intended to make other atheists think about the future in light of Mr. Carlin’s death. To that end, I believe I succeeded. I’m truly sorry if I offended you in my timing. I began my post with the fact that this saddens me. This is truly sad and it breaks my heart that a man would choose to die without God. Hopefully, others will consider the future as a result. I’ll pray you ‘re-re-reconsider’ eternity, Lottie. It’s real.
You obviously disagree. That’s OK… for now.
June 25, 2008 at 9:16 am
Right. Because he’s the first atheist ever to die.
Are you really that full of yourself? Are you really so arrogant as to think that you have come up with something new and inspiring that is going to cause atheists to suddenly believe in your god? Get over yourself. Really.
Wrong again. Most atheists have arrived at their positions through reasoning and rational thought. That doesn’t go out the window because another atheist dies (we know people die, DJ) and some Christian comes along trying to scare people with threats of eternal torment (as if we’ve never heard that before).
That’s all you have, DJ – threats and scare tactics. What you seem not to understand is that one must actually believe hell exists in order to be afraid of it. Your threats of hell scare me as much as the boogyman under my bed or the monster in my closet.
What you have done, though, is serve as a reminder and perfect example of just how illogical and irrational Christianity is, and how self-centered, arrogant and downright cruel Christians can be.
But keep telling yourself you’re working for the “greater good” if that’s what you need to rationalize your callousness.
June 25, 2008 at 9:45 am
“You obviously disagree. That’s OK… for now.”
I love how this is dripping with, essentially, a threat.
Does it not occur to you that, even if it did exist, a god that threatens people with infinite punishment in order to get followers is not worth worshiping?
Does it not occur to you that the whole concept of infinite punishment is unjust, by definition, if the thing being punished wasn’t also infinite?
I guess not.
June 25, 2008 at 12:33 pm
But you’ve now spent 2 days trying to make your point… and haven’t, Lottie. You’re coming back to my blog, not the other way around. Something is bringing you back. Wonder what it might be? Couldn’t be God, could it?
I know that if God is calling you, you’ll know it and won’t be able to fight it forever. I’m certainly not insinuating He is, but I believe God can get our attention in a myriad of ways, including blogs.
And again, I only wanted to raise the issue to make someone think beyond, “Isn’t it sad that someone died.” Someone is now in eternity and, according to scripture, now understands fully the concept of a sovereign Creator, for better or worse.
I’m done. It’s been fun.
June 25, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Just because you fail to grasp my point doesn’t mean I haven’t made it.
It’s called the internet and the My Comments page on WordPress where I keep up with everyone who comments back to me. There’s nothing special about you or your blog. You really do need to get over yourself. Narcissism is an ugly thing.
Like I said – threats and scare tactics. It’s all you’ve got. And it’s driving you nuts that you’re scared of it and I’m not.
You really are one of the most arrogant, self-righteous pieces of work I’ve come across in a very long time. If you’re an example of what Christianity does to people, you can keep it. Well, you could keep it anyway, but I’ve made my point. Whether you grasp it or not.
June 25, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Lottie,
Please stop. They were right. I believe in God now.
George
June 25, 2008 at 2:44 pm
“Catholic upbringing?”
Did not Christ entrust Peter with the keys to the kingdom?
He also gave the apostles power to forgive sins.
Do you reject this doctrine?
June 25, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Lottie,
You have to admit that you believe you came from monkeys.
That is funny.
Timotheus
June 25, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Cute! It’s about time someone here made me laugh.
Just curious… how come my comment that says “Oh and… what Morse said” is awaiting moderation? Will this one be held up as well? Did I hit a nerve? Haha…
June 25, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Lottie,
According to your thinking, you are still evoluting. Who knows what your random brain activity will think you believe next!
Timotheus
June 25, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Timotheus,
In all my, um… ‘discussions’ with atheists and agnostics, a majority of them were victims of religious abuse by the Catholic church. Hence my question to Lottie and company about their upbringing.
If you read my blog, you’ll quickly see that I am more in line with Jesus, Paul, Peter, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, etc. on down to the modern day John Piper’s, R.C. Sproul’s, and John MacArthur’s of the world.
So, naturally, as far as doctrine goes, I’m reformed. I believe the Bible teaches ‘the church’ isn’t an institution, but the people of God- the bride of Christ. We stopped needing priests when Christ (our High Priest) took our sin and gave us direct access to God the Father. And… the apostolic age of the church ceased with Paul. I don’t think you don’t read of any ‘new’ apostles after Paul, do you?
Thanks for coming by.. and by the way… I like the monkeys comment! However, we’re outnumbered, it seems!
June 25, 2008 at 3:22 pm
And what thinking would that be? Are you a mindreader too, DJ? ::wink::
And I think you meant to say “evolving”. In any case, your comment shows that you clearly do not understand the first thing about evolution. Which, by the way, is not part and parcel of atheism.
Try getting your facts straight. Heck, try getting some facts, period.
June 25, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Kudos for holding up the reasonable/informed end of the argument, Lottie! You’ve done a terrific job exposing the surprising ignorance of our host and his favored commenters–they’re ignorant of the holes in Pascal’s Wager; ignorant of their co-religionists’ failure to substantiate their Resurrection/”Dying for the Faith” mythology; ignorant of the nature of other religions that have made extremely similar claims; ignorant of the voluminous experience in, and knowledge about, Christianity that you and I and millions of other atheists possess; and now (they are all too eager to prove) ignorant of evolution and the mountain of evidence for same.
These poor folks have an enormous amount to learn about the world around them–but it appears that they’re too buried in their own superstitions even to try. Oh, well.
(Of course, plenty of us ex-Christian atheists blathered all of the same stuff–Pascal’s Wager and related nonsense–before we gave reason a try. So maybe Dave just “protesteth too much.” Even if not, a lurker or two may well be in that position.)
So keep up the good work!
June 25, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Hey, now… don’t pin the misuse of words on me, Lottie!
Actually, we do see some micro-evolution even today within species, but have never seen species to species jumps. Frogs to Rabbits to Human, for example! Won’t ever be proved. I know not all atheists claim to be evolutionists, but how could you not be, really? I mean, did or did not the universe come into being by God (or some force beyond the universe). Eh.. don’t want to debate the evolution thing too much, as I’m not as knowledgeable of that topic. I’d rathur focis mor on speling! 
June 25, 2008 at 4:05 pm
That is abundantly obvious; in fact, I’d go so far as to say that you display no knowledge at all.
June 25, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Rioux,
Welcome to the party! And thank you for showing my dear Lottie what real condescension sounds like… she was confused about that earlier.
Psalm 53, (dare ya)
DJ
June 25, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Thanks Rieux!
DJ:
Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Period.
Knowledge or lack thereof regarding what science teaches about the origin of life and the universe need not factor in at all. I have often found the following analogy useful in explaining this:
Let’s say my house burned down, and the cause cannot be or has yet to be determined. Is it rational to conclude that a fire-breathing dragon started the fire? Of course not.
Or let’s say the cause of the fire has been determined, but I have not been informed of the cause, or simply do not understand it. Would the fire-breathing dragon hypothesis make sense then? No. It would still be silly.
So it is with science and gods:
One need not know or understand the origins of life and the universe in order to rule out what is clearly irrational – in this context, any number of gods.
Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Nothing more, nothing less.
Science is a very compatible companion to atheism. People can develop a broader understanding of what science teaches about life and the universe after they are no longer blinded by faith, but scientific knowledge is not a prerequisite to atheism or necessary component of it.
I don’t need to be a fire fighter or have the slightest understanding of what can start a house fire to reasonably rule out fire-breathing dragons; I don’t need to be a scientist or have the slightest understanding about the origins of life and the universe to reasonably rule out god(s).
June 26, 2008 at 7:55 am
Lottie,
The facts are as follows:
You believe you came from monkeys.
You have no proof of it, but you believe it. Period.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 8:10 am
Lottie,
I meant ovulating, not evoluting…sorry.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 8:52 am
David,
In your opinion, which denomination or person(s) has interpreted scripture the most accurately?
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 9:32 am
First, I don’t think any one denomination has it 100% right. Unfortunately, if humans are involved, so are various deviations from scripture, however slight they may be. However, raised Baptist and having studied its Reformed history to an extent, I’d say either Reformed Baptist (Calvinist) or Presbyterian would come closest to accurately dividing the Word of Truth, scripture. That’s just my opinion based solely on scripture. ~DJ
June 26, 2008 at 9:49 am
Tim,
The following statement you made proves that you have no knowledge of evolution:
“You believe you came from monkeys.”
Monkeys and humans have a common ancestor.
You may be trying to say that humans came from apes. But even that isn’t strictly true, as we still are apes.
June 26, 2008 at 10:01 am
Lottie,
You mean there are atheists out there who don’t believe in evolution? Prove it.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 10:16 am
“You mean there are atheists out there who don’t believe in evolution? Prove it.”
Raelians. They are atheists, they don’t believe in any god.
However, they believe that aliens seeded life on planet Earth and genetically engineered us to be the way we are.
June 26, 2008 at 10:26 am
Morse,
Lottie did not deny the fact that she believes she came from monkeys, so it’s her knowledge that is limited.
I did not say that she came from monkeys, I said that she believes she comes from monkeys.
Now what you are implying is that she did not come from monkeys, but that she is actually an ape.
Lottie, any thoughts on what Morse thinks about you?
What makes you apes better than monkeys anyway?
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 10:30 am
“Raelians. They are atheists, they don’t believe in any god.”
I never really watched Star Trek that much, but if you say so. How about Spock; any idea what the Klingons believed in?
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 10:41 am
Tim,
Google “Raelians”. They are a cult that believe that aliens seeded life on Earth. I think they’re absolutely crazy, but no more so than any other religion.
“Now what you are implying is that she did not come from monkeys, but that she is actually an ape.
Lottie, any thoughts on what Morse thinks about you?”
You’re an ape too, Tim. Unless you have a tail Then you may qualify as a monkey.
June 26, 2008 at 10:44 am
David,
What do you make of Christ’s claim that you must eat his flesh and drink his blood? He never explained the real meaning to his apostles even after the crowds left him because of this difficult teaching.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 10:45 am
Timotheus:
I am blown away by your unrivaled genius. Your brilliance astounds me. Never before have I encountered such unparalleled creativity of thought. Your exemplary reasoning skills are immeasurable. You have challenged my thinking far beyond my ability to respond to your exceedingly intellectual line of questioning. Your luminosity is unsurpassed.
I am not worthy!
June 26, 2008 at 10:46 am
David,
What do you make of Christ’s claim that you must eat his flesh and drink his blood? He never explained the real meaning to his apostles even after the crowds left him because of this difficult teaching.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 10:51 am
Yes. Morse does not come across as a troll.
June 26, 2008 at 10:59 am
Lottie and Morse,
Don’t give up on me! I know you think I am uneducated and ignorant, but I know that I am improving (evolving). I am almost convinced now that you are apes. Please give me more facts as to why you and Morse think you are apes.
Are you both particularly hairy? I’m not.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 11:06 am
Lottie,
Morse thinks you’re an ape, but you call me a troll. Talk about misdirected anger.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 11:10 am
“Are you both particularly hairy? I’m not.”
You must shave.
I picture you with a sloping brow ridge and dragging a club behind you. I wonder why that is…
June 26, 2008 at 11:17 am
Fixed that for you.
June 26, 2008 at 11:19 am
Mike,
You must be one of the apes Morse speaks of.
Timotheus.
June 26, 2008 at 11:21 am
Morse,
So now it is better to be an ape than a Cro-Magnon? Huh? Which way is up for you?
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 11:29 am
Morse,
“I picture you with a sloping brow ridge and dragging a club behind you. I wonder why that is…”
So now you are calling me Tiger Woods? Are you also a racist?
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 11:32 am
You guys have to admit. I am funnier than all of you.
Mike,
Go ahead and fix this for me, while I shave.
Tim
June 26, 2008 at 11:34 am
Wow Dave,
It sounds like you struck a nerve with Lottie. Thanks for presenting the truth to her. She is really searching God out, I’ll be sure and pray for her on her journey.
June 26, 2008 at 11:39 am
I think you’ve proved exactly how far your sense of humour reaches, chum; no fix necessary, in this instance.
June 26, 2008 at 11:45 am
This all boils down to two choices:
Either you believe that an invisible, supernatural, Santa Clause in the sky “poofed” people into existence (or made the first man out of dirt and then, as an afterthought, made the first woman out of a rib)….(too stupid to realize ahead of time he’d be needing a woman??)
Or…you accept the mountains upon mountains of modern scientific evidence that humans evolved naturaly from lower forms.
Hmm…..really hard choices.
June 26, 2008 at 11:48 am
Morse,
I suppose you already realize that atheism is a religion also. Please include yourself in the list of “crazies” out there. Thanks.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 11:50 am
Someone who finds racism amusing is not only ignorant, but unworthy of further discussion.
June 26, 2008 at 11:51 am
There is quite a difference between striking a nerve and getting on one’s nerves.
Yeah, the same way I’m searching for Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
Just FYI, when you say things like that, you make your belief system look even more ridiculous, if that were possible.
Search term of the day: “affirmation of consequent”
June 26, 2008 at 11:52 am
I concur.
Over and out.
June 26, 2008 at 11:53 am
Morse FTW!
June 26, 2008 at 11:56 am
Mike,
When you shave, do you use hedge clippers?
Like I have been saying, I am not particularly hairy so the whole ape thing has eluded me. Help me out….chum…chimp…whatever.
Tim
June 26, 2008 at 11:57 am
David,
Keep searching, The scriptures say to “taste and see” Welcome to the truth Lottie…
Don’t lose heart, sounds like she’s real close to converting. You are getting on her nerves. Can you get on an ape’s nerves? Speaking of affirmation, sounds like someone could use a hug..
June 26, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Only when I’m shaving your mom.
June 26, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Mike,
That was pretty funny.
Tim
June 26, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Mike,
Now back to your problem…you are still an ape. Morse says so. Give me some good solid proof like knuckles dragging or a propensity to groom your buddy while pooping in the woods.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Hairy apes capable of this humorously creative banter had to have been created that way. I’m rolling on the floor, Timotheus and not getting a bit of work done here! Here’s my lone comment today.
Humor and creativity: Can’t be measured, quantified, touched or held, but we know it exists, don’t we? How? Because we feel it. It’s real and we all know it- because I keep picking myself off the floor. Same way with God.
And Morse, side note: racism is amusing because it shows so vividly that man isn’t evolving, but devolving. Anyone that would hold racist ideas obviously has less of brain (less intellect, I’d say) than you or I, correct? How could a race be evolving while digressing in our ideologies? Wouldn’t one think we’d be MORE kind; MORE loving; MORE understanding as our brains evolved? No. It’s called SIN NATURE. The human race is getting further from God and racism, etc. is the result.
June 26, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Apes,
Ima get some bananas for lunch. Peace out.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 12:42 pm
David,
I’m glad I could make you laugh because it was getting a bit serious in here.
Nice commentary.
Racism would be a logical product of evolutionary belief…the emergence of a superior race by natural selection and survival of the fittest. It’s funny to hear an atheist get upset by the idea of racism.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Lottie,
Was Darwin an atheist?
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Lottie, Morse, Mike,
I guess all the atheists have evolved into nothingness.
Dominus Vobiscum.
Timotheus
June 26, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Oh, well…Lottie dah.
June 26, 2008 at 3:19 pm
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June 27, 2008 at 3:13 am
There is no way for any of us to know where George’s soul is now… We don’t know what happened in the last moments of his life. That’s between him and God.
I think its easy to understand why there are atheists. Either because of the state of the world or because of Christians who weren’t on their best behavior. I’m a Christian, and it takes a lot of faith to be one. When I was a little girl I asked my mother, “What if God doesn’t exist?” and she replied, “Well, then you’ve got nothing to lose, do you?”.
Back to this post, George Carlin was a good man who didn’t share Christian views (as far as we know). I’ve prayed for him and his family (though I doubt praying for the dead works). I just hope for the best and hope he’s up in Heaven chatting with God and chilling with Jesus
June 27, 2008 at 6:49 am
I like Nubmers: 31, where the Christian god tells the Israelites to take all the thousands of Midianite captives and kill all the male children, then take the women and girl children who “have not known a man by lying with him” for themselves, (giving the priests half of course.)
So, this Christian god says it’s ok to kill innocent children and enslave thousands of others? Heh heh…I’d like to see the Israelis try to do something like that today…like conquering the Palestinians and then killing all the boy children and enslaving the women and girl children….”But god told us to do it!” Yeah….right…..
Nice guy the Christian god.
Just goes to prove my point, the bible is just 4 – 5 thousand year old myths and superstitions, nothing more.
Sorry, I’ll take modern science any day over old myths.
Of course this post will probably be held for “moderation” like the one I posted above (number 71)….a little censorship going on here??
June 27, 2008 at 10:22 am
David,
Don’t be afraid to offend these atheists when you speak God’s word and truth. Do you think Jesus prefaced his messages with a “I hope I don’t offend you.” Nope. These depraved atheists roam around offending everyone else with their mindless blather and crude language because they have no moral or ethic code to live up to. Then to shut us up, they say, “some Christian you are.”
That doesn’t work with me. This is a battle of ideas (no blood involved here) and we are living in service to the King of Kings. Let them have it…the truth in all it’s power and with no apologies! Keep up the good work, David!
Dominus Vobiscum.
Timotheus
June 27, 2008 at 11:03 am
Christie!
Thanks for the comment. I’d like to think that as well. And you’re right. We don’t know what might have happened in the final minutes of George’s life. At the moment of death, will an ardent atheist actually take the chance. There is no going back! I hope to see him in heaven one day, but based on his public ridicule of God, I’d think perhaps not. But (and here’s the quotable section for you Lottie).. I’m not the judge! Thanks again, Christie!
~DJ
June 27, 2008 at 11:05 am
Timotheus,
Thank you. You’re absolutely right!
~DJ
June 27, 2008 at 11:46 am
“God’s word and truth”??? Ha ha…Give me a break. How can you seriously even consider millenia old myths and superstitions as “truth”???? It’s utterly ridiculous.
Again, an invisible, supernatural being in the sky….hmmm…..oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Why can’t people understand how utterly silly that is??? Oh..and a red guy with horns…heh heh..boy, some people are really gullable!
It’s just old myths and superstitions, written thousands of years ago by a primitive society!
I’d sooner believe in the Easter Bunny….heh heh….
Actually it’s just really, really sad that so many people are taken in by such nonsense. But the practice of brainwashing people with these fairytales practically from birth is hard to overcome I guess.
June 27, 2008 at 5:07 pm
You know, the bible says that when somebody dies they are really dead. This is until they are resurected to either life or to judgement. Churchians have no clue as to what judgement is. Nor do they understand the scriptures. George Carlin will be perfected in judgement just like everybody else. The christian hell is a hoax.
June 27, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Dan,
I’m going to ask you to show me in the Bible where someone is perfected in judgement. I need to see this, because I’ve obviously missed something in all my years of study. And if Hell isn’t real, why are we reminded of it time and time again by Jesus Christ himself and the apostles? I’m all ears.
~DJ
June 27, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Steve,
Quite a hard heart ya got there, buddy. Maybe God will soften it one day.
~DJ
June 27, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Hey DJ,
Just a few scriptures to show what Christ and the elect will do for the lost. Hell is a mistranslation and in no way can it be confused with the Lake of Fire.
Philipians 2:10-11
at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Isa 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 26:9
When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. (that means everybody)
Rom 5:18-19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall (the) many be made righteous.
Rom 11:31-32
For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all.
Col 1:20
And, through him, fully to reconcile all things unto Him, making peace through the blood of His cross. . .
1 Tim. 1:15
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners
1 Tim 2:4
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior: Who will (thelo) have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (Thelemo means desire)
1 Tim 4:10
For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Preserver of all men, specially (first) of those who believe.
1 John 2:2
And, he, is, a propitiation, concerning our sins, –and, not concerning our own only, but, also concerning those of the whole world
1 John 4-14
And we have seen and testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Cor. 3:15
If anyone’s work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire
Isa. 52:7 and 10
. . . and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God
Rom 8:32
Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
Rom. 8:20-22
For the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain until now.
Habakkuk 214
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the Waters cover the sea.
There are many more scriptural proofs for the salvation of all.
June 30, 2008 at 6:56 am
David, no hard heart. It’s just that I’ll take science over old myths and fairytales any day. It’s only logical. It isn’t logical to reject science yet blindly accept 5000 year old myths and fairytales. It isn’t healthy either. Christians live in a delusional fairytale world. Although I think they’re either not very bright or at the very least, very gullable, I do hold a soft spot in my heart for them. I feel so sorry for them that they have been sucked into that nonsense and can’t rise above it.
June 30, 2008 at 8:51 am
Steve,
I don’t ‘reject’ science at all. It’s not either/or. God created science, man. Science actually supports the idea of a creator and not the other way around. Check this article out: http://www.khouse.org/enews_article/2006/1082
Case in point, some of the most brilliant minds in the world will tell you they believe the existence of at least a supreme being. C.S. Lewis (former atheist), J.R.R. Tolkien, Dr. Francis Collins (former atheist), Alister McGrath (former atheist), William J. Murray (son of Madalyn Murray O’Hair, outspoken atheist) and many others you might know. Google ‘former atheist’ or something… you might be surprised at the intellectuals listed. So, being “not very bright” doesn’t really hold water. And, unlike belief in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy, we find educated adults from all walks of life actually growing INTO Christianity as opposed to OUT OF it, intellectually speaking. Many of the people I just mentioned converted TO Christianity later in life.
As far as being gullible- I could say the same thing about you, but I won’t!
It’s nice knowing that there is something beyond me, beyond this life. Because if this is all there really is, how depressing!
Steve, I just want you to reconsider, my friend. You don’t have to tell your atheist friends. Just do this: late at night, in your bed, when you’re alone- reflect on the ‘illogical’ idea that maybe, just maybe, there is meaning to all this after all. Maybe there IS something greater than mankind. Maybe there is a God. Take it slow and just ponder the idea, however illogical you may think it is. No one’s asking you to go to church, tithe and thump Bibles, man! Just consider… one more time.
~DJ
June 30, 2008 at 9:17 am
There are a lot of Christians who converted to other religions and/or who wound up as agnostics or athiests, I know a few personally. Most people were brought up with the Christian brainwashing. They had it drilled into them practically from birth, that’s hard to overcome. But it’s no different than other cultures where children are brainwashed into believing in Hinduism, Bhudism, Shintoism, etc. They’re all just old myths and superstitions, nothing more. Intelligent people should be above such nonsense.
Many argue that Einstein believed in god. Einstein said in an interview that he believed in somthing like “Spinoza’s God”. (Wikepedia has a good article on it). But he said that he certainly didn’t beleive in a “Personal God”.
To me the Judeo/Christian bible is just old myths and ridiculous superstitions. The old testament in particular, with it’s justifications of slavery, the cruelty of the Israelites and of the Judeo/Christian god, just read Numbers 31 for example. It’s all so OBVIOUSLY just old creation myths from a primitive culture. Sorry, it’s just an insult to my intelligence and to any person’s intelligence who think for themselves instead of letting a 4 or 5 thousand year old book of myths do their thinking for them.
It boggles my mind why people can’t see that! I just don’t get it. Are people so afraid of death (and life) that they cling to old myths and superstitions for comfort?
Sorry, evolution is a fact. There are mountains upon mountains of scientific proof. Scientists with advanced degrees and high IQ’s have studied it for a couple of centuries now and I would certainly believe in science over old archaic myths any day.
You can have your invisible, supernatural father-figure in the sky. I have to say no thanks, I’ll stick to reality.
June 30, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Steve,
You have overlooked a huge fact about the Bible. It not only recorded historical events but also predicted numerous future events. There is only one person who predicted his death, died, and rose again to fulfill many of these Old Testament predictions. I have a good life now because of my faith in Jesus Christ and will have a perfect life with Him in eternity. Listen to Dave; just try talking to God at least once…it does not hurt at all.
Timotheus
June 30, 2008 at 1:33 pm
“Sorry, evolution is a fact”
Sorry, God is more powerful fact. The fact that evolution can even be considered as an idea is proof of God’s existence. You have not one, but two functioning eyes and ears (most likely) that allow you to read and hear about something…a brain that comprehends what is taken in, an ability to make decisions (whether you are right or wrong) and share your thoughts with another person. This is the visible evidence of an invisible God.
Timotheus
June 30, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Fact: Christians live longer…a lot longer!
Timotheus
July 1, 2008 at 7:16 am
It recorded SOME historical events fairly accurately, but cloaked in religious mumbo jumbo and myth.
I have a great life without your fairytale invisible, man in the sky. I don’t need to retreat into a delusional fantasy world to be happy.
If you want to believe in archaic myths and fairytales, that’s your right. But once again I have to say that I’ll take reality over ancient myths and superstions any time.
And that nonsense about Jesus is just that. Nonsense. He was a great teacher, but that’s all. He became a martyr because of the things he taught and the manner of his death. So his life, and death were exaggerated out of all proportion, as usually happend with ancient martyrs. Anyone with half a brain understands that.
If your fairytale god is real, then where are the sticks turning into snakes, the rivers of blood or of wine, manna from heaven, your god cruising around in the cloud and pillar of fire? Hmm? Where is all that mumbo jumbo nonsense now? Nowhere of course, it doesn’t exist now and it didn’t exist then. Just ignorant nonsense.
Read Numbers 31, where your silly god orders the death and enslavement of thousands of women and children, think about how that would go over these days. Hmmm….the Israelis killed and enslaved thousands of Palestinian women and children…but it’s okay, god told them to do it! Heh heh…yeah, that would go over like a lead balloon. Get a brain.
July 1, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Quote: “Fact: Christians live longer…a lot longer!”
Of course they do, ignorance is bliss.
July 2, 2008 at 9:41 am
Steve,
“And that nonsense about Jesus is just that. Nonsense. He was a great teacher, but that’s all.”
How do you know that He even existed if you say everything else is nonsense and fairy tales?
You say he was a great teacher. Why do you even believe that? What did you learn from Him?
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 10:02 am
Steve,
Get a brain? Right away…why don’t you and your scientists whip one up for me… oh sorry, they can’t make one…in fact they can’t even create a “simple” single living cell on their own. Something so simple and that came about randomly surely must be within the grasp of you and your amazing scientists by now.
Your science can’t give you eternal life…or even a decent looking hair transplant.
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 10:04 am
“It boggles my mind why people can’t see that! I just don’t get it.”
Then get a better brain.
July 2, 2008 at 10:12 am
Steve,
“Hmmm….the Israelis killed and enslaved thousands of Palestinian women and children…but it’s okay, god told them to do it!”
Hmmm, millions of babies are aborted every year, but you’re okay with that, right?
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 10:24 am
Steve,
“It recorded SOME historical events fairly accurately.”
Oh, that’s good to know. Which ones? According to who? How do you know what happened and what didn’t? Which books did you decide were written accurately? Who told you which books to trust?
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 10:52 am
Who are you to say that everything in the bible is true? Who are you to say what your silly god wants or does or anything of the sort.
I’m reminded of my daughter when she believed in Santa Claus, she would go on and on about how his life must be, how things were at the North Pole, about the elves etc. She was so serious, like it was all real. I get the same feeling when I listen to Christians talking about their silly invisible man in the sky. They’re so serious as if it’s all very reall. Heh heh….it’s just so utterly silly. Grown adults believing in old fairytales. How ridiculous.
With science, there is scientific evidence, hard, concrete, testable, repeatable evidence, gathered using rigorous scientific method by scientists with advanced degrees and high IQ’s.
With religion, there is only an old book of myths and superstious nonsense. Heh heh……I bet you talk to the Easter Bunny too.
July 2, 2008 at 10:58 am
So I ask again, which makes more sense?
1. An invisible, supernatural man in the sky poofing people into existence (or making them out of dirt and a rib)
2. Life evolved naturally from lower forms.
Hmmm….poof, poof, poof….heh heh. Acabra cadabra. POOF! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
July 2, 2008 at 11:41 am
Steve,
That’s funny about the Easter bunny…which was made so that secular drones like you and your kid could celebrate something during Easter. You didn’t have the guts to tell her back then it wasn’t true? Ha ha. For some reason the Easter bunny gets more attention from you than the actual event it obscures….you know, “Poof” and Jesus rose from the dead…heh heh heh.
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 11:53 am
Steve,
So you think you came from monkeys, right? Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!! Heh. Let’s try it out…Hey monkey…”poof”, “poof”, you are now a human…ha ha ha….Abra Capocus…Hocus Cadabra..Heh heh heh heh.
If all life evolved from lower forms, which race of humans, do you think, is now at the top?
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Steve,
“Who are you to say that everything in the bible is true?”
If you were God and wanted to communicate with your people, how would YOU do it? Here’s your big chance to impress us with your wisdom.
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 12:21 pm
“With science, there is scientific evidence, hard, concrete, testable, repeatable evidence, gathered using rigorous scientific method by scientists with advanced degrees and high IQ’s.”
…and these scientists say what about when we die?
How high of an IQ does it take to decide that God does not exist?
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 12:51 pm
So, do you believe in the poof theory or the dirt and rib theory. Heh heh…..Sorry, my view of reality doesn’t require any poofing or any magical invisible beings either.
It doesn’t take a high IQ to recognize an old fairytale from thousands of years ago. It’s pretty obvious to anyone with any intelligence at all. Silly myths and superstions to scare children. Boy, it’s very scary to me how gullible Christians are. I think I’ll write a book and call it “Nine Months BC or..Joseph Will Believe Anything” Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha….what a dope.
But where is this silly god of yours??? Why isn’t he flying around in his cloud and pillar of fire, smiting the heathens, turning rivers into blood, giving out manna, killing children, etc. Hmm….I haven’t seen him…have you?
I haven’t seen anybody being turned into a pillar of salt or anyone living to be 900 years old either….so where has he gone? Is he hiding?? I wouldn’t blame him for not daring to show his face…heh heh….but he’s the supreme being, why should he care what we think? Point him out to me, where is he hiding? Oh…yes, I forget, he’s invisible…how convenient. An invisible, supernatural father-figure in the sky….heh heh….wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
July 2, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Steve,
God reveals Himself to us through scripture and in the sacraments. Have you sought him out? He says that if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him.
You believe in many things you can’t see and you don’t even realize it.
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 2:29 pm
The point is, he was supposedly seen a lot, thousands of years ago. If he was seen then, doing magic tricks all over the place, then why not now?
Yes, I believe in atoms and quarks and such even though they can’t be seen. I believe in magnetic fields and in photons. I don’t believe in mythical, supernatural beings in the sky. Just because there are things that can’t be seen yet are real, doesn’t mean that all things that can’t be seen are real. I don’t believe in invisible, pink and purple unicorns either…oh wait! Wow! Maybe they DO exist….
The bible was written thousands of years ago by ignorant, superstitious people. It’s just so obviously an old book of myths. All primitive societies had creation myths and gods to explain things that were unexplainable to them.
But we know better now, we have science to explain things. No need for invisible, supernatural beings in the sky or demons and devils and angels and such. Mythical creatures that are mere figements of the imaginations of ancient peoples.
I ask again about Numbers:31, where the Christian god tells the Israelites to kill and enslave thousands of children. What if Israel did that today, maybe next week the kill and enslave thousands of Palestinian children. How do you think that would go over with the international community??? Oh, yes, the killed and enslaved all those children, but it’s okay! God told them to do it! Ha ha ha, what do you think would happen???
Doing something like that today is no different than doing it 4 thousand years ago. The crime is the same. Sorry, but I would certainly want no part of a god that would commit an atrocity like that. But of course the Israelites did it on their own, there was no god telling them to do it. They just justified it by saying that. The priests probably went along since they got half the slaves and half of all the booty. Heh heh….pretty good scam. But what a human cost.
And what about your goofball god sending billions of people to burn in agony forever, simply because they were raised in another faith?
Hmmm….I’ll teach those heathens to believe in false gods…burn forever you infidels! Hmmm….a little bit cruel and unusual punishment wouldn’t you say?
It’s all just so ridiculous, how any intelligent human being can accept such drivel is beyond me. It boggles my mind that anyone with half a brain could be so gullible.
July 2, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Steve,
I don’t believe in photons because I can’t see them. Fairy tales by men wearing pocket protectors and lab coats…just like the Good Humor man. Imagine that…little tiny particles like fairies zipping around…poof, there goes another one…ouch!..two of them at once! Heh heh. There’s a Steve born every minute!
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Steve,
Speaking of Numbers 31. Why would it be included in the Bible if the writers wanted to trick future believers into following this God?
How do you know it happened? Did you see it?
Maybe you missed something there. Keep reading and let me know…you’re the smart one!
Timotheus
July 2, 2008 at 2:56 pm
The difference is there is solid evidence for photons. Those guys with the lab coats have advanced degrees in science.
The evidence for your view is 5000 year old myths and superstitions, written by ignorant people from a primitive culture….yeah, that really makes a lot of sence. So now who is the sucker. Me, who looks logically and with reason and an open mind at the mountains of scientific evidence and draws a rational conclusion? Or you, who blindly accepts an old book of myths and ignores reality? Heh heh. Well, I guess maybe if you ignore it long enough, it might go away….heh heh. NOT!
July 2, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Sorry Timotheus, but the Easter Bunny and the eggs came from pagan origins. I assert that every Christian holliday is pagan to the core (don’t get me started on Christmass). Anyway, I’m still waiting for David to answer my scriptural proofs above showing that neither George Carlin nor anybody else is, or will ever be burning in your Christian hell (also adopted from the very worst of pagan ideas).
July 3, 2008 at 7:19 am
Steve,
Tell me how your knowledge of photons has affected your relationship with your wife, daughter, family, friends, enemies, etc.
Does your knowledge of photons prevent you from being sinful?
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 7:26 am
Dan,
Jesus is the Saviour. What do you think he saved us from?
If you have a problem with the existence of hell, then take it up with God. Ask Him why. Search for answers in the Bible, ask a pastor or priest…lean not on your own understanding.
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 7:29 am
Dan,
Pagan origins of certain holidays do not undermine the fact that Jesus Christ was born, suffered, died and rose again. That is what I acknowledge, not the pagan origins or symbols.
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 9:30 am
Timotheus, I guess you don’t actually believe the scriptures I quoted in my #99 reply to David. You don’t believe that Christ can or will save all of mankind. You ask, “what do you think ‘he’ saved us from?” Well, nobody’s been saved as of yet. However, we will be saved from death, pain, sickness, the charlotan priests and pastors with their unfounded eternal torment doctrine, ect. And do you think hell even belongs in a bible? The word used to be a verb which meant to cover or conceal. Did you know that the Hebrew word Sheol (unseen) was translated 31 times as grave and 31 times as hell in the King James? Did you know that in ancient Hebrew and Greek there was no term for our eternity or forever?
So who’s relying on their own understandings. No, actually you rely on the misunderstandings of Christian snake oil sailsmen. But I did not come up with all of this on my own either. But remember, if you think there are scriptures that contradict those I quoted (#99) then it’s you who thinks the scriptures contradict.
July 3, 2008 at 10:30 am
Dan,
There is nothing wrong with those scriptures, but you think they show that everyone will be saved? Well I guess we can all just relax then.
What is the good news? Why preach it?
Explain the mistranslations of “lake of fire”, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, “wailing and gnashing of teeth”, and “entering through the narrow gate”.
Where did you get this doctrine of no hell?
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 10:39 am
“Does your knowledge of photons prevent you from being sinful?”
I don’t believe in sin. There’s no such thing. Just wrong action and right action in human terms. The concept of sin is ridiculous.
“Jesus is the Saviour. What do you think he saved us from?”
Nothing. He was just a man, nothing more.
“Pagan origins of certain holidays do not undermine the fact that Jesus Christ was born, suffered, died and rose again.”
According to a 2000 year old book of myths written by ignorant, primitive people. Why would anyone with half a brain believe such nonsense.
Again, sigh….science? Or archaic myths?
The choice is an easy one for me. But you are obviously too content to wallow in your fantasy world than to look at things with an open mind and make a rational, logical decision based on facts instead of superstitous nonsense.
July 3, 2008 at 10:43 am
The bible is just one of many old books of myths from archaic times. There are no supernatural beings, no gods, demons, devils or angels, they’re just the figment of primitive people’s imaginations. Just like all the other old myths, like Bhuddism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Janeism, Judaism, Islam, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum…..just old creation myths from thousands of years ago. Silly old myths. Read my lips – M Y T H S. Archaic old myths that anyone with any intelligence at all knows are just ridiculous.
July 3, 2008 at 10:51 am
Steve,
You left the biggest myth out of your list….atheism. Thank you.
Don’t forget to look both ways for photons!
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 11:00 am
Steve,
You are wasting what little time you have trying to convince me that there is no God. You better get busy doing something worthwhile. But wait…for you nothing really is worth doing because it’s all useless and temporal…what a vapid and sad existence. You think you came from nowhere and are heading nowhere. Your fantasy world is very bleak.
There is still hope for you…God is kind and merciful.
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 11:40 am
“I don’t believe in sin. There’s no such thing. Just wrong action and right action in human terms. The concept of sin is ridiculous.”
You don’t believe in sin because…I know…you can’t see it. Well God sees it. You are a sinner whether you like it or not….we all are. Jesus came for sinners just like you and me. Deal with it. “Poof” another photon just wizzed by.
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? Oh…you’ve already bought it!
So tell me exactly why it is that you blindly accept old myths from thosands of years ago and reject modern science. You realize that isn’t logical or rational don’t you?
You still didn’t say which theory you subscribe to…the “Poofing” theory or the “Dirt and Rib” theory….heh heh…..give me a break.
I hope you and your imaginary friend have fun together….
July 3, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Steve,
I believe what the book of Genesis says.
I also believe that science is the study of God’s creation. You know, “Poof” F=ma. Heh.
You really like that bridge…I usually prefer the Queensborough…I’ll buy that one instead.
Timotheus
July 3, 2008 at 3:40 pm
[...] Carlin atheist, God, hate, human nature, human will, Jesus Christ, total depravity | My post last week on funny-man and outspoken atheist George Carlin’s death and subsequent conversion to the [...]
July 3, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Kids (and Timotheus),
Wifey’s been in the hospital, had surgery, no computer with me. And… quite frankly, some of you won’t be convinced no matter what I say. That doesn’t mean it’s not true. So, I’ve withheld comments for a few days because of all the above… However,
Atheists: Timotheus, while funny and sometimes barbed, is correct. Listen and learn. We’re not doing this for our health. Hopefully, you’ll stay around here, read some more and be quickened.
Timotheus: Peace! Continue in the faith.
Dan, Seriously.? No hell? (Worth a parting shot..)
July 3, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Dan, the Universalist!
>> Dan, you’ve helplessly prooftexted all over the place, my friend. You are a universalist- all go to Heaven in your wack theology. This simply isn’t legitimately listed in scripture, but I know you really tried. There is a hell. Jesus spoke of Hell more than Heaven. He must have been a liar, huh? Time and schedule will not allow me to correct you at this time, (not saying ‘never’) but even if there is not a literal place (I.e. lake of fire prepared for the Devil and his angels- Matthew 25:41) Actually, let’s talk about that- Matt 25. You should read these words of Christ. How do you reconcile this with your theology:
Verse 46… And these (the goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Hell is a total and complete outpouring by God of his now withheld wrath upon those that don’t believe. We could argue the existence of a literal place all day, I suppose, but there is eternal punishment. No boubt adoubt it!! Scripture clearly teaches this, my universalist friend! Matthew 7:21 says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Clear as can be.
~DJ
July 3, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Sorry, your “scripture” is just old myths. The more I read the more pathetic Timotheus (and your) rantings become. You guys need to study science, not old myths. That’s where the truth is. All that mumbo jumbo nonsense in the bible is just old fairytales.
Science? or myths?
You’re so indoctrinated into that nonsense I doubt that there’s any hope for you. You’ll just continue to wallow in your fantasy world. Well, I hope your imaginary world brings you comfort.
But I ask again, how can anyone with an ounce of intelligence read those old myths without busting out laughing? They’re just so utterly ridiculous.
Science is the answer. Science not myth. Hey, that should be my slogan SCIENCE not MYTH! Heh heh….maybe I’ll start a movement.
July 3, 2008 at 6:30 pm
As for hell, I ask again, why would anyone follow a god that sends people to burn forever simply for being brainwashed into another religion instead of being brainwashed into Christianity? Isn’t that just a little bit of “Cruel and unusual punishment”?
Screaming and burning in agonizing pain FOREVER! Why would anyone in their right mind think a god like that was benevolent???? How utterly ridiculous!
The concept of Hell is just the same old stupid myths for the Greek and Romand “Underworld” or “Hades”. Just scare stories to scare children. Something the priests made up to keep people in line. Just old ignorant people trying to explain volcanic activity. Why can’t people see that??? Again, it just boggles my mind how gullible and stupid Christians are. Well, have fun with your imaginary friend. Heh heh…..Maybe the Easter Bunny will come by for a visit too.
July 3, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Billions of Hindus, Bhuddists, Shintoists, Janeists, Muslims, Jews, tribal religions, etc. etc. all down to burn forever….simply because they accept what their parents teach them…..nice guy your god. Only a real dope would believe such idiocy.
July 3, 2008 at 6:46 pm
I am in all respects, a universalist. However, the term is generic and does not in and of it self define what I believe. I assert that neither DJ nor Tim believes one of the scriptures I listed. And there’s so much more to proove that Christ will in fact save all mankind. For instance, in the OT you have all kinds of symbolism which you would probably just deny.
“My Father is the Farmer”
John 15:1 and 5
I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer. . . I am the Grapevine. You are the branches.
1 Cor. 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
FirstFruits: (the Spring Harvest) a type foreshadowing:
1 Cor. 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FirstFruit of them that sleep
The Wave Sheaf (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover) (includes Passover)
This represents Christ, the very first (wave sheaf) of the fristfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.
The Feast of Weeks is when the firstfruits of the land are harvested. This represents the Elect who will be in the first resurrection.
James 1:18
We are the firstfruit of God
Rom. 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FirstFruits of the Spirit
Rev. 5:10
And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(How about the rest of God’s creatures? You know, the one’s going to Hell?)
The end of the year Feast of Ingathering (Feast of Tabernacles): (Fall harvest is always bigger than the Spring harvest, this is symbolic for all mankind being saved.)
Ex. 23:16
And the feast of harvest, the FirstFruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the Feast of Ingathering, which is in the End of The Year, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field.
Deut. 16:13-15
Thou shall observe the Feast of Tabernacles seven (number of perfection) days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall Rejoice in Your Feast, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates. (Sounds like everybody’s celebrating, not just the FirstFruits)
Eph. 1:10-11
God is operating all according to the counsel of His own will (What happened to free will of man?)
Eph. 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in Him
Ver 23-24
Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation (end) . . .
II Cor. 15:24
Then comes the end . . . (when all are saved)
Ex. 23:16
. . . and the feast of ingathering of the Fall Harvest, which is in the end
John 7:37-38
In the last day, that Great Day of The Feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of Living Water. (This is a prophesy for the time that all men will accept Christ’s invitation to join Him in the kingdom)
Thanks gos to Ray Smith of bibletruths.com for this info.
July 3, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Just a few parting thoughts. Do you really want to believe that the majority of mankind will go to your christian hell? Do you really believe that such a god is even worth worshipping? Would you really enjoy your heaven (as taught by the church) while so many, including some of your family members, are roasting in some fabled hell? How about all of those people written about in the Old Testament that God had commanded to have killed? It would be unreasonable to expect these people to live “righteously”. You don’t understand the scriptures and their symbolism. If you do not repent and continue to believe and teach these attrocities you will be judged in God’s Lake of purifying Fire.
I highly recommend you study the works of Ray Smith at bibletruths.com.
You might also like to read every thing I’ve written here several times (#96, 99, 125,129 and the last one) before you continue to deny these wonderful truths.
Your friend,
Dan the universalist
July 3, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Dan the Universalist! (catchy, don’t you think?)
And I more highly recommend you read the works of Jesus, Paul, Peter and James, my friend. You cannot take scripture out of context. I believe you are leading many people into a false security with your ideas. God is HOLY, wouldn’t you agree? God cannot look upon unholiness, would you agree? Those not justified and sanctified by the Holy Spirit will be trying to get into Heaven on their own merit- something the Bible clearly, clearly teaches is not possible. I don’t understand your angle, man. The verses you’re wanting me to read and interpret as supporting your point of view simply do not do that IN CONTEXT. You’ve taken tons of verses out of context here, Dan. (Example: Ephesians 1:10…the phrase “all in Christ” means “all that are IN CHRIST”, which is consistent with many other passages of Paul’s letters. It cannot be read to mean “everyone will be in Christ” because that doesn’t square with other scriptures like Matthew 25:46- the goats don’t make it, buddy!) Tell you what, I’ll check out Ray Smith if you’ll check out R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Charles Spurgeon, John MacArthur, Jonathon Edwards and B.B. Warfield. I wish all men could get into heaven, but the Bible just doesn’t support that idea.
~DJ
July 4, 2008 at 12:02 am
Steve,
You’re relying solely on a science that can’t even cure the common cold? Lame! Hey, look, I’m not against science.. I think I told you that like, 3 million responses back, but science and nature point to a larger design, and thus a designer.
Let’s go back to the point Tim made in #103: “There is only one person who predicted his death, died, and rose again to fulfill many of these Old Testament predictions.” Over 300 prophecies fulfilled by one man, Jesus. How is this explained? Would you like some examples? Check this out: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
Just a few listed here, but it has to make you at least THINK about the possibility. What are the odds, Steve?
~DJ
July 5, 2008 at 9:25 am
I might grant you that there is a possibilty of some “larger design”. But I still don’t believe in 5000 year old creation myths. Nor in 2000 year old Jesus myths either. Your “scripture” is just old myths to me.
Old testament or new, they are evidence of nothing. The only “evidence” you have is an old book of myths. You can quote your mumbo jumbo nonsense from it all day long and it’s totally meaningless to me. It’s not evidence, it’s just old creation mythology.
Thousands and thousands of scientists with high IQ’s and advanced degrees have looked at evolution for almost 200 year now. They say it’s real, it’s a fact. So who do you think you are that you know better?? Heh he….do you have an advanced degree in science? Do you even have a degree? Do you think you’re smarter than thousands of scientists? ha hah, not hardly. All you have is an old book of myths. Have you even looked at the evidence for evolution? Or are you just clinging to your old myths for support? I’ve read your silly bible from cover to cover and I found it to be nothing more than old myths and superstitions, as would anyone with intelligence. Have you reand any texts on evolution?
When you’ve thoroughly read up on evolution and looked at all the evidence, then you might be qualified to talk about it. Not before. I read your silly old book of myths, why can’t you read up on evolution?
It’s just all so silly. Your invisible man in the sky poofing life into existence. Abra cadabra hah ha ha ha ha….do you ever think about things for yourself or do you just totally rely on a 4-5 thousand year old book of fairytales to do your thinking for you?
July 5, 2008 at 9:28 am
Heh heh….maybe you think all those scientists made all that stuff up about evolution, just to lead you astray? I think I heard Jerry Falwell say something like that once. No, it was that the devil put the fossil evidence there to lead people astray….ha ha ha ha ha, what a dope.
But remember, Darwin probably never saw any fossils, he based his ideas on animals and plants that he observed in nature. Anyone who studies nature sees for themselves that evolution is just so utterly OBVIOUS. But of course you can’t be bothered to even look. How arrogant and ignorant.
July 6, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Steve, it’s about being blind. Belief or non-belief in evolution or even God has everything to do with one’s spiritual sight or blindness. The bible talks much about this blindness and it is always God who is behind it. This is why churchians such as David don’t see one iota of truth in the scriptures. I feel that one of God’s greatest miricles is the fact that the bible can be so specific on some subjects yet so few can see it (manny called, few chosen mean anything to you David?).
Then you have the evolutionists who might be as blind as Dave and his fundamentlalist heretic buddies. We all know that Darwin was a brilliant man who did great work in showing the truth of micro-evolution (it’s clear to me that the potential for change was worked into the DNA from the start of creation). Darwin knew that the fossils did not show species in transition. They still don’t. What the record shows is that species appear relatively suddenly and dissapear just as suddenly. And those textbook transition drawings have been proven to be a product of man’s imagination. And what did Darwin know on the mollecular side? Practically zilch.
The invention of the electron microscope should have put the idea of macro-evolution from a single cell to rest. But then there’s that darned blindness that the bible speaks of.
Ezek. 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he has spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ex. 4:11
And the Lord said unto him, who hath made man’s mouth? Or who maketh the dumb, or deaf or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?
II Thes. 2:11
. . . God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
(Yeah, the bible is probably talking more about Dave and his beloved Jonathan Edwards who was one of the sickest heretics ever to stand on the pulpit. But I clearly see this blindness when you have brilliant scientists with such unworkable conclusions as macro-evolution.)
The most basic cell known to man has 10s of thousands of specific subcompartments. (by the way, they also have fossilized cells and all indications are that they were always very complex.) Many sections of cells are so irreducibly complex that it would be laughable to think that there would be a reason for them to evolve in stages. And how did all of the diffent body plans evolve transitionally? They couldn’t have. That’s why Gould suggested “punctuated equalibrium” where species rather, transitioned too fast for the transition fossils to likely be excavated. But that idea poses more problems than most scientists want to tackle.
I think we can draw parralels between evolutions and Churchians. When people are told the same thing over and over by those whome they consider to be authorities, they are almost certain to believe it. Neo Darwinists have decided to incorporrate mutations as the main source of evolution (even though it has been shown arguably, that mutations rarely if ever produce a possitive survial characteristic). Evolutionists have made it appear that whoever does not believe in full scale evolution as they teach, that person is either dumb or poorly educated. I believe that I am more informed on the subject than most of this dogmatic society.
Then you have Dave and over a thousand years of absolute heresy. They couldn’t identify sound scriptural doctrin if it kicked them in the face. So who’s to blame? Well, God actually causes all, but the blame still goes to the fear mongering theologians who felt that by inventing sick horrifying lies to keep people in line, the ends would justify the means. But they are blind and have been told the same crap for so long that it would take a mirricle for them to see the light (that light is Christ and a few will be shown it in this life. Hope I become one of them).
Evolutionists have people afraid of being criticised for seeing truth out side of the box and Theologians have people afraid of some fabled hell for all eternity (hell is mistranslated and so is eternity. Jesus Christ never spoke of such a horrendous place. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual purification).
Dave, there are some good books written by brilliant scientists who show clearly that macro-evolution could not be the answer for all of the different forms of life. Dave, I will not pass judgement right now because I don’t know what God has in store for you. Besides, this post wasn’t for you.
July 6, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Dan the Universalist,
Ugh… this is exasperating. I’ve never actually met anyone who believes in God, but not in Hell! Everything has an opposite, right? Do you believe in Heaven? Maybe not.
You haven’t actually proven anything in the verses you say disprove the existence of hell. And I’ve not said anything heretical to my knowledge. I’m glad you believe in God and have a fear of him (fear in the sense of respect and awe… lest you take that out of context, too!
) But you have got to take the Bible as a whole as the truth of God’s word, or you will find yourself on shaky ground, my friend. You’ve not convinced me because I know a mountain of scripture that speaks to eternal separation from God’s glory. I’ve studied this stuff, man.
Again, I’ll tell you this- what you’re propagating is dangerous. You should study some more if for nothing else than to ‘reinforce’ your beliefs. And in attempting to do so, I believe scripture will shout truth to you and you’ll see.
Steve: You’re in my prayers. ‘Nuff said. God bless.
July 6, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Another good example is the family of mammals called monotremes. They are mammals but they lay eggs, they produce milk, but they have no nipples. The milk oozes through the pores on their chests and the babies lick it off. Mammary glands are modified (evolved) sweat glands.
Other examples are the marine mammals. River otters swim very well but have short legs, they can still get around well on land though. Sea otters have shorter legs and their back legs are like half feet/half flippers, they don’t get around very well on land. Seals and sea lions have evolved even further along that line, they have fairly well developed flippers, sea cows and manatees have whale like flukes in the back but still retain stubby legs in the front. Whales and dolphins have finished evolving back into sea creaturs, they have fins and flippers, but with the exact same bone structures as feet and legs. There are several fossil examples of whales with leg-like appendages and even further back, legs. Good examples of animals in-transition.
One qualification of a mammal is that it has fur. Did you know that dolphins still retain a small bit of fur? It’s a “mustache” under their nose.
Evolution is so OBVIOUS. Sorry if you don’t believe in it. But beliefs and opinions don’t change facts.
July 6, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Steve, whales are terrible examples of evolution. Their sheer numbers are too low for such changes to take place from land to water over millions of years. The theory of evolution requires ridiculously high numbers of specimens for such changes to take place. Besides, are you aware that the ankle bones of those prehistoric whales were totally unlike any of those of the land creatures that they could have evolved from? You use other examples that you think proove common decent. Well, maybe you didn’t realize that the eye of an octopus is more similiar to that of man than the eyes of most other mammals are similiar to that of a man.
By the way, “biologists have known for decades that homologous features are not due to similar genes” (Wells. Icons of Evolution p.62). Evolution would have to have taken place at the molecular level. It obviosly did’nt happen that way.
July 6, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Yes David, I believe in Heavan. There are two types in scripture that I know of. The first: In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth. That would be the heavenly bodies making up our universe.
Then there’s the other Heaven:
And you, Capernaum, which art exalted into heaven, shall be brought down to hell (hades).
How has thou fallen from heaven (man’s state of haughty delusion), O howl (not O Lucifer, some scholars insist that it should read morning star), son of the dawn. Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations. (Talking about the king of Babylon, not Satan.)
Dan. 4:11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached into Heaven
Dan 4:20 and 22
The tree that you saw. . . It is You, O king, (of Babylon) that are grown and become strong: for your greatness is grown, and reached unto Heaven. . .
2Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (our haughty minds) being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
By the way:
John 3:13
And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven. (Heaven is not a geographical location, but a high realm of God)
Christ was in Heaven while in the flesh. Confused?
Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, You are there: if I make my bed in hell (sheol) behold, You are there. (God is at our highest as well as our lowest spiritual depths)
Sheol as hades is the unseen. It is the realm of the dead where there is no conciousness.
The scriptures never identify Heaven as being a place where people go when they die. What scripture shows is that Heaven is the highest realm and no man can reach it at this time. The King of Babylon tried but failed miserably. Christ was there while in the flesh. This is proof that heaven is not a geographical location.
What am I thinking? You are too blind to see anything I’ve written so far, right? Afterall, you’ve studied the scriptures for 25 years, right? It’s not going to work!! If Christ does not give you the eyes to see the things of the spirit you will never see them (but we all will eventually). Don’t tell me that those 25 years of study were not interpreted by the worldly synagogues of men. The theologians have kept you in the dark of what the scriptures are even for. You’ve been led by the blind. If I studied airline flight from baboons would you enter a plane with me at the flight deck? I don’t think so.
Let’s look at one of your flawed premises. You declare that the scriptures teach an eternity of separation from God for nonbelievers. Well, Revelations insists that those judged will be judged in the presence of the Lamb (also, revisit Psalm 139:8 above. Your misunderstanding of sheol here would have God present when one makes his bed in hell). Besides, we know where the concept of hell fire came from. It comes from Matt 5:25 and is speaking of Gehenna fire (a physical geographic location where there was physical fire at the time). Then there’s the Lake of Fire commonly understood to be the Christian hell. Let’s not forget purification by fire (Heb. 1:7, Mark 9:49, Malachi 3:2, Lamentations 1:13). How about the fact that God is that fire.
1 Cor. 3:13
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is”
Heb. 12:29
“For our God is a consuming fire”
Lamentations 1:13
“From above has He sent fire into my bones. . .
Matt. 3:11
I indeed baptized you with water unto repentance: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Jer. 23:29
“Is not My word like as a fire? Saith the Lord”
Get real. You don’t know the first thing about scripture. I told you where you should go to learn about it. It’s never too late to get started.
May God remove your blinders if that be His will.
July 7, 2008 at 5:57 am
Dan,
So you just ignored the photos of the skinks eh…I’m not surprised.
Whales numbers are small OF COURSE because of centuries of hunting….duh! Do you get it now? There were millions and millions of thme in the past. Evolution takes hundres of thousands to millions of years.
Why do you continue to quote babbling nonsense from that old book of myths? It just sounds like “blah blah blah oooga booga” to me. It’s totally meaningless and has nothing to do with reality. It’s just an old book of myths and superstitions. Blah blah blah to you too!
There are thousands and thousands of examples of transitional species and mountains upon mountains of SCIENTIFIC evidence for evolution. The only so-called evidence you creos have is a 4 to 5 thousand year old book of myths and silly superstitious nonsense. Do you subscribe to the “poofing” theory or the “dirt and rib” theory? Heh heh…..again, I’ll take SCIENCE over superstitous nonsense ANY day. The ignorance of the average person scares me really badly sometimes.
July 7, 2008 at 8:23 am
Steve,
Are you still here kicking and screaming? Not one person here has listened to a thing you are saying. Know why? Because it does not do a single thing for anybody’s day to day living condition: spiritually, mentally, or physically.
There was an interesting Gospel reading this Sunday where Jesus says, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from wise and intelligent people and have revealed them to infants.”
Take your high IQ, go to Starbuck’s, sit down with a Mocha-chalito and watch all your fellow apes order $5.00 coffees. There’s an intelligent idea!
July 7, 2008 at 8:26 am
David,
Keep up the good work, my friend….we are still dealing with a “stiff necked” people!
I am not sure where Dan is coming from but he is one of the reasons I think a qualified church is needed to correctly interpret difficult scriptures.
Timotheus
July 7, 2008 at 9:04 am
Qualified chuches? Ha!! That’s a laugh. What do the scriptures say about your qualified churches?
Rev. 17:4-5
“Mystery Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth”
What do they do?
Isa 30:10
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: (Just listen to Joel Olstein sometime.)
Rev. 2:1, 2, 9
I know the Blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan.
Rev. 17:4-5
“Mystery Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth”
What do they do?
Isa 30:10
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: (Just listen to Joel Olstein sometime.)
Jer. 50:6
My people have been lost sheep: Their shepherds have caused them to go astray. . .
Rev. 18:2-4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, come out of her My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (What do you think her stands for?)
July 7, 2008 at 9:09 am
Steve,
“There are thousands and thousands of examples of transitional species and mountains upon mountains of SCIENTIFIC evidence for evolution.”
Ummm…yeah that, uh, leg bone we found that belonged to Lucy…the monkey lady. Case closed.
Here are some of Steve’s examples of transitionary species we see today: the Catfish, the Birddog, the Whaleshark, the Horsefly and of course the numerous eyewitness accounts of the Sasquatch by scientists with high IQ’s.
Timotheus
July 7, 2008 at 9:17 am
Steve,
There is a sure way you can prove Dave and I wrong about evolution.
Please make another attempt to mate with a chimp. Then take a photo of the transitional species that develops.
If it does not work, just keep trying because we are so closely related…you know our DNA is about 99% the same as chimps. Try a whole bunch of chimps…it’s just got to work. Science says we are very closely related…just keep trying.
Timotheus
July 7, 2008 at 9:29 am
No need to mate with a chimp. Your parents already did that.
Ah, they say ignorance is bliss. You must be extremely happy!
Ok, I’m done. You guys are so brainwashed with your fantasy world there’s absolutely no hope for you. Wallow in your fairytale world the rest of your lives, at least I tried.
July 7, 2008 at 9:44 am
Dan,
Oh, you don’t believe in organized religion…I guess that means disorganized religion works for you. Interpreting the Bible correctly requires some kind of qualifications…wouldn’t you agree?
Put down the snakes and relax.
Timotheus
July 7, 2008 at 9:57 am
Steve,
The irony is that you’re the one who thinks your ancestors came from chimps, not me. Don’t forget to groom your buddy next time you poop in the woods. Have another banana. Once upon a time poof, Steve came from chimps…there’s a fairy tale for you.
Just because no one wants to get into your sinking ship, you are going to quit? I always knew you were a quitter! Typical atheist…in it for the short haul.
Timotheus
July 7, 2008 at 10:10 am
David,
Don’t worry, we’ll get rid of all the Goliaths out there. It just takes a little time and one good shot with a small stone!
Timotheus
July 7, 2008 at 10:42 am
Tim, those qualifications come from God you fool. Not some worldly theological semetary (where they berry the truth). Knowledge of scripture comes from the ability to connect scriptures to other scriptures. This ability is lacking in the churches of this world. Rather, they are experienced at following the same traditions preached at the hoards by false prophets. I’ve been shown some of the truths of scripture only because God wanted to show me them at this time. Not only do the modern day Pharises fail to understand a lick of scripture, they lack good common sense. A God of love does not torture humanity for all eternity. Nobody would be happy in some heavenly realm while thier friends and children or grandchildren, or dad’s or mom’s or greatgrandparents are roasting in some fabled hell. I don’t think you’ve really meditated on anything I’ve written. There’s more truth in one sentence that I’ve written than there is in your entire church (and I aint just talking about the evil eternal torment doctrine).
By the way, I have way more respect for the beliefs of the average atheist than I do for your sick and twisted beliefs in eternal torment. In fact, Steve’s idiotic ranting about the so called facts of evolution only make me laugh. What you people believe, makes me want to vomit all over Sunday church clothes. Beleive me, Satan has you just where he wants you to be.
July 7, 2008 at 11:09 am
Dan,
You are quite ridiculous…you can’t even spell correctly and you think I am a fool. Welcome to Dan’s world of opposites…where up is down and dark is light.
You say there is no hell, but yet you say Satan has me where he wants me. Why should I worry about Satan and his lies if there is no hell?
You can’t convince anyone here of your beliefs because they do not make any spiritual sense!
Who else believes what you do? You have a very unique and specific “religion” of your own.
Timotheus
July 7, 2008 at 11:18 am
Tim,
Don’t you know… Satan also will be saved one day… right, Dan??
He’s just a good ole’ boy that wants to do right, after all. Gee whillikers, Beaver, God really does let everyone into Heaven after all.
Geesh,
DJ
July 7, 2008 at 11:27 am
Dangerous Dan,
Still waiting on your commentary for Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus’ own words about eternal punishment. He specifically mentions those on his right (sheep) and his left (goats). IAre these verses not in your version of the Bible?
~DJ
July 7, 2008 at 11:30 am
Oh, and Dan,
What about the whole HOLINESS and JUSTICE that describes our God, mentioned throughout all of scripture? I think you have the “LOVE” part down, but He’s also a JUST and HOLY God, my universalist fiend er… friend..:)
~DJ
July 7, 2008 at 12:41 pm
“….innumerable transitional forms must have existed but why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? ….why is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain, and this perhaps is the greatest objection which can be urged against my theory”. ~ Charles Darwin, Origin of the Species, p.302.
July 7, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I’ve been looking at this blog going back and forth ever since George Carlin died. It’s sad that he is now dead but everyone will eventually die and than comes judgement. Period! We can all deny it, ignore it or just don’t believe it but it will happen. The thing about death is once you die you don’t get a second chance to make the most important choice that will determine your destiny forever. For those that argue that there is no God, that’s your choice for we all have a choice. Except you don’t comprehend the word ‘eternity’ is, do you? It has no beginning and no ending. hmmm
July 8, 2008 at 7:57 am
Stu,
Thanks for chiming in. Faith is a gift; some people have it and some don’t. I guess we can’t get too upset about which people God chooses to reveal Himself to. We are just supposed to testify and profess what we believe and let God do the work of salvation.
Timotheus
July 8, 2008 at 8:21 am
Folks, we have a new voice and I will refer to him as Eternal Stu. Stu, check the scriptures below for how eternity is used.
The term aions is used below in ways that when the rest is translated properly, forever or eternity would never make sense.
Before the aions: 1 Cor. 2:7 (before the eternities?)
God makes the aions Heb. 1:2 (God makes the forevers?)
Past aions: Col. 1:26 (Past eternities)
Present aion: Gal. 1:4 (Present forever)
End of present aion: Mat. 24:3 (End of present eternity)
The next aion: Lk. 18:30 (The next forever?)
Future aions: Eph. 2:7 (Future eternities?)
Contrasting aions: Eph. 3:21 (Contrasting forevers?)
Ends of the aions: 1 Cor.10:11 (Ends of the eternities?)
And Stu, where is there a scripture that says once you die, it is too late to be saved? There isn’t!!
That’s right. The term is aion for eternity and aionios for eternal. David, let’s take a look at Matt 25 and God’s justice. Let’s see how the Concordant Literal New Testament renders some of these scriptures.
#41 “Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonioan, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
#46 . . . And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.
Wow David!! So God does require justice for the sins of one’s heart. What does God do to these creatures? He chastens them!! This word is always used when the purpose is for correction. I’m sure this correction will be very severe for some but less severe for others. Remember, one must be mature in Christ to be in the Kingdom of God.
By the way, I’ve already told you what fire represents symbolically.
Now, how long does it say this chastening lasts. Well, the Concordant and every competant biblical scholar has the word as eon (a period of time). When scripture speaks about those inheriting the Kingdom of God, it’s talking about those who are saved without having to experience the Great White Thrown Lake of Fire Judgement.
Speaking of Satan:
“He’s just a good ol boy that wants to do right”.
Tim, you speak as a fool. Satan is fully carnal, and couldn’t possibly do right. For him, deceiving mankind is like a great meal to us. Satan was created by God to do exactly what he is doing.
Isa. 54:16
I created the waster to destroy
Job 26:13
By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand has formed the crooked serpent.
Again, churchianity fails. Satan did not create himself. And since the Lake of Fire was created for Satan and his messengers, yes, it is apparant to me that Satan will be saved (of course he won’t be Satan any more).
Now Tim, I need another lesson in churchianity 101. Why in all false doctrine hell, would Satan be so motivated to make sure that all of those hoards of people go to the tortorous fire with him for all eternity? How would that benefit him? Is he gonna be lonely otherwise? Poor Satan. No one to talk to while screaming in fire forever.
Or do you believe that Satan rules over hell and enjoys torturing the lost souls? In other words, Satan would be rewarded for all eternity. Your logic is backasswards. And by the way, there are retarded people that have more spiritual insight than you.
July 8, 2008 at 11:45 am
Oh Tim, it was Dave that spoke as a fool about “good ol Satan” Bad Dave!! But Tim, if you’re so concerned about my spelling rather than the truth I have been wasting my time typing then spell this:
If you continue to bury your head in the sand I will plant berries on top of it.
July 8, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Dan,
You’re spelling is improving but you are still all over the place with your ideas. I just don’t know what you are trying to impress on your listeners here…is it repent…or relax…or get up…get out…Satan’s good…Satan’s bad…????
The retarded people you are talking about…do you live in a big house with them? What kind of chores do you like? Tell L. Ray I said hello.
Timotheus
July 8, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Dan,
I put a spelling error in for you…see it? Ha ha!
Timotheus
July 8, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Dan,
“Why in all false doctrine hell, would Satan be so motivated to make sure that all of those hoards of people go to the tortorous fire with him for all eternity? How would that benefit him? Is he gonna be lonely otherwise?”
Dan, you spelled hordes and torturous wrong.
You should have put a comma after “Why”.
gonna? It should be “going to”
Now, Satan is bad and he going to hell…let’s keep it simple.
Timotheus
July 8, 2008 at 3:08 pm
You ‘re not getting a thing I’ve stated Tim. I’m telling you to pay closer attention to the words in scripture (the one’s translated correctly) and to take a step back from fundamentalist Christianity. If you were to read everything that I’ve written then you would see that none of it contradicts. And I just answered David’s Matt 25. For every scripture I pull out, the context police are going to blow their sirens. First off, they are not out of context and second, the churches are so convoluted in their beliefs that I’m surprised that anyone with a third grade education can’t see it. And they don’t agree on a damn thing. . . except the 7 or 8 major doctrines. By the way, there are several scriptures that are universally correct.
1 John 4-14
And we have seen and testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
That’s one of them.
Basically, it seems that the churches invented several major doctrines and labored to find scriptures that support them. Of course those scriptures chosen are totally out of context and in no way are proving what they the theologians say. Often, their doctrines don’t line up with actual definitions of biblical words.
It’s like what you said to Steve when you said no one is listening to you. Well, pull the cotton out yo ears, take the blinders off and start listening to people. You’d be surprised how much you might learn. I read some of Darwin’s work and I’m reading the God Delusion by Dawkins. Why, because I don’t opperate through fear. You do!!
July 8, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Dan,
You asked where in Scripture does it say you don’t get a second chance to be saved. Hebrews 9:27-28. That’s pretty clear and not everybody gets to go to Heaven. And Revelations is really clear to state about Hell. Of course, that isn’t the only reference in the Bible about Hell. All ways do lead to God because we all will be judged but not all ways lead to spending eternity with God. I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where it states everybody goes to Heaven no matter what they believe or how they lived their life. Jesus said he is the way and that’s that. Again, we can all believe what we want to believe but it’s pretty clear as to Who to have your trust in.
July 9, 2008 at 12:12 am
Well said, Stu. And I still don’t think that the goats Christ mentions in Matthew 25 (i.e the ones SEPARATED from the sheep) make it to heaven. Those are Christ’s words, friends. Twisting them to fit a cultish idea is plain dangerous! We are told in 2 Tim 2:15 to ‘rightly handle the Word of Truth’. I take that admonition very seriously.
Dan, you seem to have studied quite a bit. Are you currently in a church? If so, which one?
July 9, 2008 at 12:20 am
P.S., all… the ‘good ole’ Satan’ comment… major tongue-in-cheek…It seemed a natural fit since we’re talking about the celestial brouhaha with Christ’s bride (the church) along with all the wicked, God-loathing goats. It’s gonna be a great time… can’t wait!
p.s.s. Do I get extra credit for spelling brouhaha correctly??
July 9, 2008 at 7:55 am
Haven’t you read a thing I’ve written David? Go to bibletruths.com. I don’t even like selling God out by playing Christmas and Easter gigs at churches. As a musician, of course.
July 9, 2008 at 9:28 am
Dan,
I am reading L Ray Smith’s web site cover to cover. It is very interesting but I sense a lone theologian/philosophy crying in the wilderness, as it were. How did you stumble upon this guy?
Timotheus
July 9, 2008 at 9:33 am
Dan,
When Jesus stated that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us, what did He mean?
Tim
July 9, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Tim, I guess it means symbolicoly to take His spirit unto us. I think you know that you don’t need to physically eat anything. As far as how I found Ray:
About three years ago I had been searching for the faith in God that I so much desired. Knowing a bit about science, I sought answers from people on the net such as Hugh Ross and Richard Deem. They helped me see that the bible doesn’t really teach a literal six day creation (that was big for me). I found that most of what scientists say tends to support the bible (actually, evolution wouldn’t do much to hurt it). Anyhow, I saw that a creator was necessary and the bible seemed to have historical evidence that couldn’t be denied.
So, I watched a few TV evalgalists who seemed to provide little and I assumed that I just didn’t understand. But then, I watched some of those hell preachers such as Hagee and Dr. Kennedy. Now, I didn’t feel that the bible supported eternal torment (if it did, I would have had to write the whole thing off as a hoax). In fact, I didn’t feel that the word hell ever seemed to be talking about a consious state of torment. Usually, it seemed to be talking about physical death. Anyway, I’ve always hated that doctrine.
Anyway, Hagee’s sermin on hell was so abosolutely disturbing that I wanted to dismiss him as some whacko who’s views aren’t shared by others. So I proceeded to search for information on him and the hell doctrine. I didn’t find anything that satisfied me. Many understood that hell came from words meaning grave and such but none explained the words hell fire.
So, that night, I took a walk. I discussed with God my feelings about such a destination for those who can’t possibly believe. And let’s face it, somebody can swear on a stack of bibles that they believe in, and love God. It does’nt mean that they do. I felt that there is no sin in this life that could justify such a punishment. NONE!!!! I even said, God, I do not want to experience an eternity of perfect happiness while others are suffering. Nobody asked to be born so nobody should face such a cruel and terrible destination. I don’t want to live in the next life if this is what happens to those who don’t go to your heaven
Actually, I prayed for annihilation of those not saved to be the truth.
When I got home, I again searched for information on Hagee. I came upon an article entitle “Exposing Those Who Contradict”. After reading the entire article, I wrote Ray thanking him for such wonderful truths. I went to bed knowing that none would be tortured endlessly in some hell.
July 9, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Stu, just plug your scripture (Heb. 9:27) into one of the many scriptures I’ve already provided. Maybe my explanations aren’t up to par but I definately have provided scriptures that show that there are a chosen elect that will be with Christ before the others (goats) are judged, purged and made righteous, in order to receive salvation. The scriptures are silient on what happens right after the Judgement but they assert that the final result is “Christ Will Save All”.
July 11, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Fellow Men,
So here is the last word…nobody really knows exactly what will happen and when it will happen and to who. In the meantime try to do something nice for someone else today…in the name of Jesus, of course.
Timotheus
August 7, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Wow! This has been quite the read and I must admit, I was a little saddened to see Lottie’s discontinuation of her participation! I just don’t understand how someone couldn’t believe in God! I mean, ESPECIALLY after learning of other monotheistic religions existing prior to Christianity, like Zoroastrianism! Not to mention the gross misinterpretation of “s’tn” used continuously throughout the bible! I’ve always been a fan of hearsay, *cough, cough* I mean, faith *cough, cough* over rationalization, haven’t you!? I’d love to be imprisoned for the entirity of my life by a judge believing I murdered someone simply because someone said they saw me do it, wouldn’t you? God bless hearsay! Oh, and let’s not forget presumption! Since the theory of evolution was the alternative to God back when the earth was flat, I can’t IMAGINE that someone not believing in God could fail to acknowledge BOTH religion and evolution!
An Agnostic or Atheist couldn’t POSSIBLY detest the faux factual teaching of evolution to children while making them mention a God in a pledge, could they? Noooooo, that’s just preposterous! hahahaha, how could anyone NOT believe in the God of Christianity? I can’t imagine. Oh, yeah… Actually, I can. Faith, aka, the choice (by your own “God-given” free will) to remain ignorant to the facts that would put your belief in more of a tailspin than a child with the foresight to question how the heck evolution fits into the equation of God… or (dare I say) vice versa.
I used to be a Christian until it just quit making sense. I tried REALLY HARD for the first 18 years of my life to be faithful, believe and attribute all great things to the glory of God! Oh, how great God is! I’ve always wondered why the heck God is so selective! Haven’t you? I mean, why God would choose to favor one person over another is astounding to me but I guess that’s just all a part of God’s plan that you don’t question! Suffering? Who cares!? It’s not YOU suffering, so just chock it up to either the evil of the devil or God’s will and be done with it! Ohhhhh how great God is to you! I’m so happy for you. =) Really, I am! I love you. I love you so much. I love all humans! I just love you so much. I know you so well. I love you! I’ll pray to Satan to bring great torment into your life, how about that? Since Satan, you know… has so much more power over us than his creator, let’s see if he can have you strapped up to one of those ingenious contraptions from one of the Saw movies! Yeah, how about that? Actually, how about I go get on a Satanic (in the terms of the Christian Satan; not the true meaning of the word) messageboard and ask all of them to beg Satan to bring a great evil unto you so as to expedite the process of you meeting your God!
You see what I did there? Did you catch that? You and your Christian friends’ threats of your God’s “hell” is no different than someone threatening you with your devil’s evil. Amazing how that’s kind of one in the same, huh? And no, I don’t expect you to do anything other than every other Christian does to my response, which is to do or say one of the following:
Quote some random bible verses to make yourself appear as knowledgable as your book of farces.
“God is working in you harder than EVER now!”
“The bible says…”
“Satan has a hold of you.”
“The bible says…”
“You’re going to hell if you don’t change.”
“The bible says…”
“You poor little Atheist/Agnostic… how ignorant and pitiful you are.”
“The bible says…”
“I love you! I want you to be saved! It makes me sad to see people like you who!”
“The bible says…”
“The bible says…”
“The bible says…”
Wow, lookie there! I just spared just about all of you Christians here a post or 1000! (Erm, not including Timotheus, of course, who has an intellect far superior to any other poster on this blog of which I expect to see an incredibly mind-shattering point to rationalize) Meh. I could speak in terms of logic all day but the difference will still be the fact that if I die today, I’ll be excited to see if anything is beyond this life where as you believers hope you’ve done good enough not to have landed your butts in hell. I can’t believe you believe in a God that would prefer prostelyzation in the means of DJ’s initial post over every other non-selfish/non-pretentious method available to man. But whatever. After reading the bible twice in my lifetime and absolutely desimating the foundations of Christianity through my studies of theology (see: facts you would choose to ignore if you knew them anyway, so please don’t inquire about such knowledge. I figured I would go ahead and tell you not to ask me since I knew you would), your God is a God I could never support or desire to know. I can’t imagine the role being reversed; me in God’s shoes and God in mine. I would NEVER expect humanity to find and believe in me given their “limited” mental capacity to rationalize the irrational. Yeah, yeah… I know. God isn’t rational, you have to just… open your heart! Open your heart and ask heyzeus to come on in! Come on in, heyzeus! Thanks for dying for me! Gotta love the great plan of God to make you suffer. At least you know what it feels like to suffer like so many others on this earth have to without ever being introduced to religion! That makes complete sense, but nevermind that… welcome! I want you to take ME to heaven! ME! ME, ME, MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! IT’S ALLLLLLL ABOUT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! lol.
Alrighty; I suppose I’ll wrap this up now and I have my doubts this will even be posted. If it is, great and I can’t wait to read the responses! (Yes, it will be the responses I will be looking for when I come back here; not some part of God’s plan, DJ. lol)
-Stephen
PS – Indeed, your God does appear capable of anything: Genesis 38:1-10, Ezekiel 4:12-13, Deuteronomy 23:1-2, Lamentations 3:38-39, I Kings 14:10, I Samuel 16:23, I Samuel 19:9, II Samuel 12:11, and the list goes on and on with verses you either didn’t know and will ignore or you did know and choose to ignore. God is so great and loving! Oh yeah, I forgot… (I dare you) lol.
August 7, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Oh, and one last thing… I realize that logic and rationale is a little too complex for you to acknowledge and doesn’t fit into your God equation at all (just what would you Christians do without your Apologists!?), so just know that you believers are as frustrating to those of us who live (quite nice) tactile lives as our logic is to your blind faith. You use the unexplainable to support your faith. Knowledge is damning for you. I get that and one day, Christianity will die out and if the earth hasn’t been destroyed by a meteor by that point, I’m sure people will look back at you Christians and think you were as ridiculous as any other culture we find ridiculous for believing in the Gods they believed in. Ridiculous!
Oh, but not your God. How convenient that you happen to be of the era of humans God decided to grace with his book. Which, by the way, what am I talking about? Earth destroyed by a meteor? What the heck am I thinking!? Revelations tells us *EXACTLY* how the earth is going to end! *DOH!* What a dolt I am! =)
-Stephen
August 7, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Stephen,
Man, listen. You’ve got nothing because if you’re atheist, what is life but just waiting to die? You said you were Christian at one time and ‘tried really hard’.. see? That doesn’t work. Where did the breakdown occur for you? At mass? The priest molested you? What? You really don’t get it, but then again, you rely on human wisdom as the end all, be all.
What is logic and rationale? How do you know what is logical or rational? Oh, and I believe Lottie got struck by God after that last post!
August 7, 2008 at 3:04 pm
DJ,
“What is logic and rationale? How do you know what is logical or rational?”
http://www.dictionary.com
And it’s not about how I know what is logical or rational, it’s about how I know what isn’t. You’ve got a whole page full of reasons just slappin’ you in the eyeballs, so I’ll tell you to re-read all prior comments before asking me how I know what ISN’T logical or rational. =P
“You’ve got nothing because if you’re atheist, what is life but just waiting to die?”
Believe it or not, there is a Godless perception of life that leaves room for EVERYTHING. I live and love just as you do, only I don’t need God to appreciate and feel humble and appreciative for the good things that happen in my life. If that’s your wife in your picture, I’m sure she’d be happy to know you would view her being in your life as pointless if you didn’t have your faith. lol. Sound ridiculous for me to say? Of course it is; just like you saying what I quoted above.
In regards to death, I waited to die more when I was a Christian than I do now. lol. In fact, I was TERRIFIED of death when I was a Christian and equally as terrified to question even the existence of God for fear of going to hell. The scaremongering worked on me for a while but so many things just quit making sense. Who are you to assume what my definition of “tried really hard” is? I would wager a great deal (instead of just fully assume) that I know far more about your religion than you ever will before you die. That’s because I once viewed life as you apparently do; finite, and what is there if not something beyond death, right? What in the WORLD could there possibly be in life to enjoy?
Because I don’t see the world like that anymore and I accept the potential finite state of life, I live my life with TWICE the amount of love and passion I EVER did as a Christian. No, don’t get all assumptive on me; I was far from some loveless, listless Christian. I’m someone you would want to know as a friend despite our differences in belief. I am that friend, that family member that is evercaring and reliable. Anyway, I digress.
“Where did the breakdown occur for you? At mass? The priest molested you? What?”
There was no breakdown other than Christianity simply no longer fitting into the equation of my world view. That was the breakdown but the nail in the coffin is when I decided to go against everything I so faithfully believed in to test the authenticity of what I believed. Sure, I knew what was in the bible and I knew all about my believe but I had no idea about those in the past who believed the same, where this book I believed in came from, etc. I realized I believed in something that had NO answers for the questions I kept myself for so long from asking. It seems you’re so sure you have every non-believer pinned down to some sort of human interference in the church when really, it’s the imperfection of religion itself that presents “the breakdown” to people like me. Open your eyes a little and quit assuming so much; I don’t care how many atheists you’ve supposedly talked to who had bad experiences.
“You really don’t get it, but then again, you rely on human wisdom as the end all, be all.”
Quite the contrary. There is no end all, be all for me. Did you not get that from what I previously wrote? I am not satisfied with ANY of man’s explanations (yes, including religion) for existence. Human wisdom is FAR from the end all, be all but unfortunately, it’s either faith, science, or you’re left to your own quest. FORTUNATELY, I’m rather enjoying being classified within the latter. This quest ITSELF is part of what life is to me! Nevermind friends, family, wonder, amazement, emotions, knowledge, music, technology, and so many other things on this earth. I can no longer fathom the need for a God to appreciate life.
-Stephen
PS – You’re so quick to judge the previous religious past of atheists/agnostics that I myself wonder just what it is that happened to YOU in YOUR past… with or without regards to religion (and no, I don’t want to know, so don’t worry about going into it. As soon as I close this window, I won’t wonder about it any longer tonight; I promise. lol).
August 8, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Stephen,
I totally agree with you. What you said about friends, family, music, wonder, and amazement — that’s what makes life so compelling. Science would have us believe that all those things are just random neurons firing off in our brains, but I believe it has to be more than that. I would rather live — REALLY LIVE — for one day than zombie-walk through life for 80 years. And who wants to accept some pre-packaged explaination for all of life from some uptight priest? Blaze your own path, find your own meaning, follow your own quest, invent your own GOD! It may be totally subjective and emotional, but at least it will be yours. How totally rebellious!
Oh, but wait: you said you wanted to be logical and rational. Bummer. Because logic is going to lead you down a different path. Logic is going to force you to explain why you’ve rejected the truth claims of Christianity, not just say “please don’t inquire about such knowledge.” A rational person would try to explain in a rational way why Christianity is false. As someone who used to believe it (not to mention knowing more about it than David) you would be the perfect rational person to give a step-by-step logical proof that would disprove the Christian faith.
Oh, but wait: why would you want to bother? Your “quest” is to seek new wonders and new songs and new amazing sensations your whole life. Why bother to defend the “truth” when limited human wisdom can’t grasp it anyway? Seek pleasure! Run after it full tilt until you’re out of breath! Stop posting to people’s blogs and go find your bliss.
Or maybe this is what gives you the greatest pleasure right now.
In any case, all I’m asking is this: Are you saying logic is king or emotion is king? You claim that logic can kill Christianity (although you have yet to back up that claim) and you’d rather follow logic than the bible. But then you invent your own meaning for life based totally on subjective emotion without any logical foundation.
Here’s the problem with these darned Christians: they don’t claim that reason and faith are opposites. They don’t claim that faith takes over where reason leaves off. they claim that FAITH, as they define it, is TRUSTING in facts already established by reason, logic and observation. Now you point out–quite correctly–that their faith is based totally on hearsay. Well said! By the use of that single word you sidestepped the whole process of trying to determine the reliability of the biblical record! Why bother to go to all the trouble of learing if the bible may or may not be credible when you can brush the whole thing off as just being the “word of man?”
Of course, if we refuse to take ANYTHING on the authority of credible wittnesses, we will have to resign our selves to knowing pracitally nothing, but who cares? If the truth has no value — I mean inherent value apart from the value I decide to give it –why worry about knowing anything beyond my own personal experience? All I need to know is, “does this give me pleasure right now?”
There’s another thing you and Lottie both said that I totally agree with — this Christain god is all threats and intimidation! What kind of loving god, I ask you, would threaten his children with punishment in a burning hell?
It reminds me of my doctor. He’s always saying things like, “Stop eating two double cheesburgers every day, or you’re going to have a heart attack before you’re 45.” One time he says, “You really should wear a condom when you’re having sex with hookers; you might get herpes or HIV.” The nerve! Here he is claiming to care about my health, like he’s my buddy or something, but all he’s got is threats and intimidation!
Finally, you totally nailed David with you comment about his wife. Can you imagine him saying to her, “I love you and value you because you matter to God. Your worth as a human being has nothing to do with my feelings, which might come and go, but in the eternal truth that you bear the image of God. When I treat you well and respect you, I honor both you and the Father who gave you to me. When I do anything less, I’m failing you, God and myself.”
I bet she’d walk right out the door!
He needs to say the kinds of things that square with your worldview: “Honey, right now I find it noble and satisfying to say I love you. Right now, you’re full of wonder and enchantemnt, so you have value for me. My love for you is based totally on the subjective opinion that you’re cool, and therefore I’m under no specail obligation to stay faithful to you when you get old and saggy. In fact, you’re walking the razor’s edge with me every day, because I’m in this life for the thrills and rewards. So anyway, lets’ go back to talking aboput how clever I am…”
You totally killed him with that one. Keep up the good work!
-Glen
August 9, 2008 at 12:43 am
Glen,
*thump, thump*
Hang on a second… what’s that sound I hear?
*thump, thump, thump*
Oh, never mind. It’s nothing!
Look, while I appreciate your long-winded sarcasm, you’re basing most of it off of (ironically) sarcasm. My sarcasm. Which you completely failed to grasp. You’re equally as presumptuous as most fanatical believers I run across. You obviously missed where I said “see: facts you would choose to ignore if you knew them anyway,” “I figured I would go ahead and tell you not to ask me since I knew you would,” “sound ridiculous for me to say? Of course it is; just like you saying what I quoted above,” and “I am not satisfied with ANY of man’s explanations (yes, including religion) for existence.”
If you and all of these other believers continue to be selective in what you reply to when people like me come around and comment, then the results are always going to be the same (hence my original sarcastic remarks which – again – went right over your witty little head). My comment in regards to not asking about said knowledge is something commonly known as a “taunt”. I actually WANTED someone to ask me to state my case and boy, did you walk right into that one! Oh, but you assumed I was actually serious with that comment, hence, you think I’ve just RANDOMLY come to the conclusion I’ve come to! How lovely.
I’d love to say I’m as selfish as you would have everyone believe I am from your little “go find your bliss!” nonsense, but your attempt to (selectively) turn (selective) comments of mine around was lackluster, (selective) and ignorant. I love how you criticize my supposed “lack of stating a case” while making a grandiloquent statement of yours. How utterly selective of you! Faith sure does require more than just belief, it seems! Being selective and willful ignorance are definitely up there on the “must do to be faithful” list.
Since you seem to have not grasped a single point I did indeed reference in my initial post, allow me to recap (though I doubt to read anything about any of this from you sans a witty level of sarcasm I’ve never experienced before):
1. Read the entire bible!
2. Read it again!
(If you really need more proof than that, then stop being selective or dozing off. If, by chance, you’ve fully comprehended the majority of what you read, then please continue…)
3. Research pre-Christian monotheistic religions, such as Zoroastrianism and Ancient Egyption!
4. The origin of “Satan” (translated from the Hebrew term, “s’tn”)as an actual opponent of God!
5. Your God’s selectiveness (remember that word?), his infliction of evil upon man and his condoning of both murder and genocide, his support of slavery, the horrible perception of how women should be treated and homosexuals automatically being sent to hell (might want to take a look at what science has discovered about that one most recently and – if you’re not too homophobic – speak with a few men who are gay and ask them if they feel it was ever a choice), his lack of concern to intervene with the atrocities to happen to man over the past 200 years, the list goes on.
6. Read the bible and learn just what it is you claim to support (just in case you didn’t see it the first two times I mentioned it).
7. Research even the existence of your Jesus Christ and then Zarathustra; then read up on how astonishingly similar they are (which will become unbelievably apparent to you since you read the bible…).
8. Check out the passages I mentioned at the end of my first post and tell me what you honestly think about them (in addition to what you thought of the rest of the bible, since, you know… you claim it to be “the truth”, factual, and stand by it 100%): Genesis 38:1-10, Ezekiel 4:12-13, Deuteronomy 23:1-2, Lamentations 3:38-39, I Kings 14:10, I Samuel 16:23, I Samuel 19:9, II Samuel 12:11,
Wow! That little list there should honestly keep you busy and not merit another point from me for quite a long time (though I know it won’t, because that beautiful little free will your God gave you allows you to cry “faith!” and thy will be done!) but if not, try being non-selective with other Agnostic/Atheistic perspectives scattered throughout this post… but something tells me you don’t care to do that. Especially as lengthy as this comments section is! Geez, imagine how laborious THAT would be to go through! Surely nothing to you or any other believer, though, since you’ve undoubtedly already read the bible and know what you’re claiming before asking me for examples to try to prove my case of why I don’t believe your book or your religion. But you knew that already. Silly me!
And make no mistake; I’m not trying to create a God. Man has already done that, resulting in people like you. No, I’m searching for something that feels much better than Christianity. I am Agnostic. I don’t claim to know or deny the existence of a God; just that Christianity is a huge farce and perhaps the most elaborate creation to ever fool humanity. I mean, how many books could you put in the hands of people and get them to believe in them by giving them just a handful of philosophies out of it, making them feel guilty for being born and then tell them to believe, or else eternal damnation? I guess if you were one of those referenced in Ezekiel, you would’ve baked bread with your own feces and the feces of those around you and ate it at the supposed command of God, huh? No, wait… God was actually nice and allowed them to use cow dung instead of human dung to bake that bread. Not ringing a bell? Of course not. lol. LEARN WHAT YOU ARE FREAKIN’ CLAIMING TO SUPPORT BEFORE ASKING SOMEONE TO PROVE SOMETHING! Sheesh. I could go on but you will undoubtedly use the same rebuttal I’ve heard time and time again… or maybe you’ll ask me what I’m talking about and tell me I haven’t stated enough for my case!
Who am I kidding, though!? You just keep your pretty little faith and go spend hours of your Sundays (and maybe Wednesdays) on little philosophical meanderings based off of a few random bible passages from a man no more or less than you who supposedly is an authoritative source of a freakin’ book! Likewise, continue to claim 100% faith in that book you obviously do not know very well, (at best) don’t comprehend, or (at worst) DO know very well and choose to support and believe anyway! I mean, with SO MANY PEOPLE on this earth believing, how could you be wrong!? Psh, forget reading the whole flippin’ thing! That’s a huge read, huh!? Just claim it… it’s much easier, Glen. Trust me! =) It’s either religion or science, right? There couldn’t POSSIBLY be more to ones’ being than just what we have at our disposal this very day, could there!? NOOOO!
Now, I know it should take a good bit of time for you to actually look into the points I’ve referenced, so you just go right ahead and rely on that faith of yours! Boy, it sure does make a heck of a lot more sense than random neurons firing off in our brains, huh!? How quaint!
Man, you TOTALLY killed me with that one! I’m am truly awe-stricken, thus, I await the next installment of your prophecy, oh witty one!
-Stephen
PS – Oh, and don’t be selective and tell me how equally ridiculous it is for me to believe in science. Read my earlier posts. I’ve made it clear I find both religion and current scientific theories (that I’m aware of) for means of our existence as ridiculous. But don’t worry! I’ll just be one more Agnostic frying in some little hell place for all eternity because I didn’t believe in what you seem to believe is some “great” God! Give God a high five for me when you die, will you? Make sure he does to me ten times that which he did to Job, too. Then, you BOTH can say, “told ya so!” Sounds like fun, doesn’t it! =) Three bible thumps for hell-bound non-Christians!
*thump, thump, thump!*
August 9, 2008 at 8:57 am
Oops. I left out a ‘0′ in my post above where I said, “his lack of concern to intervene with the atrocities to happen to man over the past 200 years”. Go ahead and assume it was meant to be there like your name was Dr. Gerald Aardsma.
-Stephen
August 9, 2008 at 11:31 am
Wow, so I just checked back in on this blog and noticed its continuation. I will say, I have agreed with most of what Steve said in his last few posts. A God who commands His people to kill all of the pagan’s including women and children, would be pretty damn evil,. . .if: If, God couldn’t right a wrong (no, I didn’t say God was wrong). God created these people for this very reason. Their death was to be a type and shaddow of death to come. What death? The death of the carnal mind which is hatred to God. All of those people, along with the ancient Hebrews (who had their share of evil as well) will ultimately be saved through judgement. In fact, by having them killed, they were probably being spared greater judgement for their future sins.
A god that would torture people for all eternity for no redeeming value would be most evil and unworthy of worship. No such god exists!! When given the eyes to see the truth, the world will know what fire and brimstone and such symbolically represents. Clear a few mistranslated words in the KJ and it’s a pretty good translation which undoubtedly teaches universal salvation.
So, I don’t believe in macro-evolution. Is this because I believe in God? Believe me, evolution wouldn’t cancel out the need for a creator to make everything work. The bible can co-exist with evolution (with the exception of man’s evolution from ape like creatures). To me (and many competant scientists) the evidence for evolution is so full of holes, that I don’t believe that it could be true.
The truth of the holy scriptures translated in our bibles are so self evident to me, that I don’t believe for one second that they could have been made up. I know it takes a special gift to see these things (or in my case, see them when explained by others). The scriptures connect almost like a perfect puzzel. I won’t bother with any archiological evidence, because you can check that out for your-self.
To me, one of the greatest evidences for the inspiration of the scriptures, is that so few can see their truths. That includes you, Steve, as well as all of the hell mongering heretics out there who think they know the word of God. Just because most people are to short to see the wonderful truths on the other side of a high wall, does not make them “rational” or “righteous”.
Dan
August 9, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Stephen,
I have to admit that I was (selective) in responding to your post. I’m sorry about that. but, dude, your posts are all like 60,000 words and each bounces around between 15 different topics. Now, I’ve got three things working against me:
1. I have a job.
2. I type kind of slow.
3. I’m trying to get all the Harry Potter books read before the next movie comes out.
As a result, I can’t stay up all night responding line by line to your posts. But, I’m a fair-minded person. What do you say to this: Could you bring up one topic at a time and give me (and others on this blog) a chance to respond? That way, I cannot be (selective) in my own comments because there will only be one issue on the table.
Sound reasonable?
-Glen
August 9, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Dan: You’re not even worth addressing. Have fun in heaven. I’ll make sure to send you a postcard from hell if it doesn’t burn before I even get to write it, k? K.
Glen:
“1. I have a job.”
Likewise. Are you implying you’re incapable of multi-tasking? I’m sure there’s got to be at least 10 minutes to spare away from your job to pop a search term in Google, click your mouse a few times and exercise those eyeballs of yours.
“2. I type kind of slow.”
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I already noted that I felt I left you enough to research to not hear back from you for a while, so what does your typing have to do anything? Oh, your selectiveness. Good excuse. It fits right in with the theme of your whole post I’m now replying to.
“3. I’m trying to get all the Harry Potter books read before the next movie comes out.”
Watching the movies are a bit faster and though they don’t encompass the same detail found in the books, they serve their purpose.
I’ve given you a whole handful of topics to choose from yourself. Exercise that free will of yours that God gave you! I give you permission to be selective amongst whichever points of mine you feel so inclined to delve into. How ridiculous of me to ask you people of faith to actually know your religion inside and out before believing it and attempting to debate logically with someone like me who has studied MANY religions with the main focus on Christianity.
If you just don’t care, then say so and I’ll quit giving you all the proof you need to see that your belief is one big convoluted lie. I can’t help you if you don’t want to accept it. Don’t ask me to state my case and then turn around and do nothing with it. At that point, you’re pretty much proving your willful ignorance (SHOCK!).
Anyway, have fun catching up on old Harry Potter. There’s absolutely no value to anything I’ve said. I’m just another “know-it-all” Agnostic! Right? RIGHT!? (There; was that post short enough for you?)
-Stephen
August 10, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Stephen,
You’re very kind. So we agree to three things:
1. No more bellyaching about my being (selective); we’ll just stick to one point at a time.
2. I get to pick the topic we’re going to stick to. (This really is going above and beyond on your part.)
3. I will not “ask you to state your case and then turn around and do nothing with it.”
Okay, cool. In that case, can you explain to me your problem with verses like 2 Samuel 12:11 and Lamentations 3:38-39? Is it related to you describing god’s “infliction of evil upon man and his condoning of both murder and genocide, his support of slavery, the horrible perception of how women should be treated and homosexuals automatically being sent to hell?”
Now, I know you have said that logic proves the Christianity is false. So I know you’re not just working from an emotional standpoint of saying you don’t like god doing these things. So you must be claiming that these things are inherently evil. I know I’m making an assumption here, so forgive me if I’m mistaken, but I am asking if your proff reads something like this:
1. In order for god to be morally good, he cannot do that which is evil or condone that which is evil.
2. God condones evil things in the bible, and willfully brings harm to others.
3. Points 1&2 are in contradiction: either god is not morally good or the bible does not give an accurate picture of what he has done.
Does your proof read something like this, or do you have another problem with these verses?
-Glen
P.S. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, but I was afraid if I skipped church this morning, God would send me to hell. **cough**
August 10, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Glen,
Testing the water temperature before diving in, eh? It’s alright; I completely understand the relevance and sheer magnitude of importance of your proposed debate in support of Christianity.
Actually, you questioning those two particular verses out of everything else I posted in relation to the broad statement of mine you quoted makes it seem as though you aren’t taking this very seriously – in which case – I’m inclined to ask if you’re simply looking to have a battle of the wits or if you’re genuinely interested in expanding your knowledge of your belief. #1 (much less #2) from my list is typically always too much to ask from a person of faith. Maybe give osmosis a shot?
Instead of focusing on the meaning behind the obvious (a typical devise used by people of faith), let’s just take the two verses you inquired about for face value. Wow, all of a sudden, those verses make complete sense as to why I referenced them and – from such a point of understanding – would tell any logical person to perhaps delve further into other noted verses and points given. But we’re not talking about logic. Man, what a fickle and ignorant beast faith can be.
Ergo, we’re left to frivolous debate by a person of faith with no intentions of anything but winning an argument. Typical. My total proof consisted of everything on that list (and that was ALL just for starters!). Now, I know it seems ridiculous that JUST reading the bible would make any logical person see its many fallacies and completely irrelevance – sans the moral values, which could very much be extrapolated and taught outside of the mental confines of religion (The Jeffersonian Bible was a great idea) – but here again, that darn faith has a way of making the very same logic that allows you to enjoy your life so much seem irrelevant!
The main point I’m trying to get across is that Christianity is a big farce. If you want to be all knit-picky and continue to go back and forth with your irrelevant prattle, then you’re going to lose my interest very soon (and I just KNOW you care so much about that, lol). You call the bible true because it contains very applicable morals and standards by which to live by. Okay, that’s great but you have no idea what else you’re calling “true”. I mean, if the 10 commandments stand in the bible to define FOR MAN what’s good (and therefor evil), then why shouldn’t we hold the Christian God accountable for committing the very things he supposedly defined as evil? Practice what you preach, anyone? Oh yeah, that’s right… God has some divine plan and therefor an eternal “get out of jail free” card.
My problem with the two verses you selected (in addition to all of the others you didn’t) are their face value when compared to the face value of contradictory versus alllll encompassed in that grandiose book you people of faith like to call “the truth”. Just keep turning the other cheek and all is well.
Long story short, I completely understand your faith allows you to take comments such as mine with a grain of salt and almost with some sort of humorous “picking on the outsider” theme. No position could be any more desired by me than as such, so thank you. =)
When I said, “infliction of evil upon man and his condoning of both murder and genocide, his support of slavery, the horrible perception of how women should be treated and homosexuals automatically being sent to hell?”, I gave many more verses and points to reference than the two verses you’ve pointed out. Perhaps an alternate approach? Allow me to be specific with you.
Infliction of evil upon man and condoning of murder and genocide: Num 25:3-4 (Ever wondered why people of the middle east fight with such zeal in the name of religion? Oh yeah… you probably don’t care to understand… much less just care), Num 16:32-35, Judges Chapters 6-10 (It’s about Gideon and if you don’t know what Gideon did with God’s approval, then you again exemplify the ignorance of faith), the list goes on and on. Thumb through the old testament. You’re sure to find SOMETHING on just about any page you thumb to (yes, I’m exaggerating a bit; just in case you didn’t catch my sarcasm).
Support of slavery: Know anything about history? The South used to justify slavery prior to the Civil War by referencing the bible. Try these: Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22, Titus 2:9, and Timothy 6:1-2. Let me guess… you’d be a happy slave owner in your quest to make it to heaven, right?
Mistreatment of women (male chauvinism at its finest): 1 Corinthians 11:9, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy 2:9-15, Ephesians 5:22-23, just to name a few.
Homosexuals going to hell: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Romans 1:26-27 and lastly, I’d like to quote the following and ask you why it should be ignored the condoned heinous acts of God:
1 Timothy 1:9-11 says: “But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
So… “sound doctrine” includes preaching actions committed by your very own God that go in the very face of his teachings? Oh, that’s right; you have to hear it from an Atheist, Agnostic, Deist, or some other non-Christian. Hmm, now I wonder why that could be.
My source is the very book Christians call factual and full of holistic morals. Meh. I guess what you don’t know can’t hurt you, right? Just imagine everything else you can learn just by taking the time to read that flippin’ book so many of you are so quick to defend and say you stand for.
Next, Glen?
-Stephen
PS – I’ve got a friend who has always wanted to run into a church on Sunday with Alka Seltzer in her hands and red contacts in her eyes, then go stick her hands in whatever water she can in the middle of service and start screaming; acting all demon-possessed and freakin’ people out. lol. Just imagine how many people would be prolifically affected by that and how it could possibly stand as the single-most reason for them to believe! If Alka Seltzer and red contacts could trigger that kind of response from faith, just imagine what something on a much larger scale could do. (Christianity) *cough, cough*
August 11, 2008 at 6:30 am
Stephen,
Er, okay. You do understand how logic works, right? “My total proof consisted of everything on that list.”
Er, Meh? (What is “Meh”, BTW?) You do understand that “Read the entire bible” is not exactly a step in a logical proof, right?
I’m sorry if this seems nit-picky to you, but you said you had logical reasons for rejecting Christianity. Could you please present them in a logical way?
If I understand you right, you’re saying that god could not be justified in commanding us to act one way, but acting in another way himself. For example, we are not to commit murder, but he murders thousands in the bible, and orders his people to murder thousands more.
**Thump, cough, thump**
Er, yeah. Anyone who has read the bible knows that god claims rights for himeself that we do not enjoy. (Deuteronomy 32:35 – “It is mine to avenge; I will repay.” ) If I grant you this, can you build some kind of proof that gets us from there to “Christianity is a big farce?”
In other words, Christianity never claims that we are on the same level with god. Indeed, I think it’s fair to say that the bible consistantly teaches the opposite. Since god is a different kind of being than us, I fail to see the LOGICAL contradiction.
Now, sure, on the emotional, subjective level, it seems unfair. Why should he get to tell us one thing and then do another? I’m sure my son feels the same way when I tell him not to play with my power tools, and then I turn right around and use them myself. It’s not fair, it’s not fun, but he can’t build a logical proof that shows that there is a contradiction. (Not yet, anyway.)
If you find logic fails to hold your interest, or is just too restricting and nit-picky, that’s okay. But don’t claim to have logical reasons for your views and then try to make giant leaps in thinking with no support. Can you see the leap from “god condones slavery” to “Christianity is a farce?” One does not prove the other — that is, you’re making a huge number of assumptions in between without stating them or giving proof. That’s just not how logic works, my friend.
But, hey, you don’t HAVE to be logical about this if you don’t want to. (Is that what’s commonly known as a “taunt?”)
BTW, I think I caught your cough.
-Glen
August 11, 2008 at 6:40 am
**Cough!**
Oh, God! I’m laughing my butt off! That is the funniest thing I’ve ever seen! In my last post, the web site turned some of my punctuation into emoticons! That looks so lame!
**Cough, thump**
Here I am trying to make a point, and this lame-ass smiley face pops up where there is supposed to be a close-parenthesis.
**Cough, cough**
Well, I guess that takes me down a notch or two. It’s like getting caught with your fly down. Meh and double meh.
Anyway, I hope you can overlook that. =-(
-Glen
August 11, 2008 at 9:31 am
Stephen… re: your post #191… what is logic and rationale? So far, you’ve not shown either. I see lots of ranting about not believing, etc. But I am actually going back to the list of scriptures you put forth as proof of something back in post # 188… what was this supposed to prove?
When reading scripture, one HAS TO take into account who the book was written to (in the case of epistles), for (much of the OT) and about (again, most of the OT). You can’t just pull random verses together from all over the old testament as proof that God isn’t real. You’ve obviously not correctly exegeted any of this because it’s all out of context… Nevertheless, I’ll go along for the time being. And try to stay out of Glen’s way… DUDE! Oh, and by the way, regarding Zoroaster- he didn’t claim to be God, did he? Wasn’t he simply regarded as a prophet? Help me out there! His painting looked really cool on Wikipedia!
Glen, it seems that Stephen could be a politician the way he’s dodging the ‘logic’ question, but I’m sure he’ll enlighten us eventually.
August 11, 2008 at 10:35 am
Glen,
First off, I want to thank you for debating this with me. All of our witty jabs aside, I’m learning how to approach people of faith. That being said, onward!
You said: “Er, okay. You do understand how logic works, right? “My total proof consisted of everything on that list.” Er, Meh? (What is “Meh”, BTW?) You do understand that “Read the entire bible” is not exactly a step in a logical proof, right? I’m sorry if this seems nit-picky to you, but you said you had logical reasons for rejecting Christianity. Could you please present them in a logical way?
What’s so illogical about 1-8 and then some? If you can’t logically follow a list numbered 1-8, then I guess I do indeed fail to see how logic works, Glen! Please enlighten me. Maybe if I had written the numbers in Hebrew? My list of proof is far from as insignificant as you seem to think. Please do not confuse your willful ignorance and lack of interest for a lack of understanding logic on my end. Read my post again and use dictionary.com if you fail to understand words like “monotheistic”. If you DO understand it, then learn what “monotheistic religions prior to Christianity” means. THEN, if you happen to understand THAT, then please take a look into Zarathustra and Zoroastrianism. Follow it through into the births of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Study some history. Take a look at Zoroastrianism. I’m not going to spell it out for you here; if you’re disinterested and unwilling to learn for yourself, I’m not going to spoonfeed you.
I don’t think quoting Deuteronomy 32:35 was necessary to prove that your God claims rights we’re not allowed. I thought I made it clear that I fully understood that. Yeah, we’re DEFINITELY not the same as God! Must be fun to kill people that piss you off, huh? How does your understanding of logic work, Glen? I’m truly intrigued now.
Hmm, let’s see… power tools and murder. Nice comparison! “Do as I say, not as I do.” Gotta love that one. “Son, don’t use these power tools and let me explain to you why. You could get hurt. I use them to do constructive, non-harmful things. Feel free to ask me questions if my power tools continue to interest you and I will give you answers.” I completely see where that equates to “son, don’t murder people on a mass scale like I do. Other than the fact that you’ll go to hell for ever and ever, I can do these things for reasons known only to me and I have that right. Don’t ask me why; I’m a different being than you and I won’t answer you. Just do as I say, not as I do.” Good metaphor, Glen! Clearly, my defiance of Christianity is equal to that of a child wanting to play with daddy’s power tools. Duly noted.
Anyway, all that I want you to say to me is, “Stephen, I will quote the bible because I believe it is 100% true, even though I don’t know 1/8 of its content.” Since knowing inside and out the religion you claim seems ridiculous to you, just go ahead and let me know that you care not to learn what you believe in but rather you will debate until you’re blue in the face to prove that Christianity is NOT a farce. I’ve given you plenty of things to do for yourself and research but I guess I shouldn’t be shocked that you want it all spoonfed to you. Clearly, I have presented an illogical case to you. (1-8 has never been difficult for me. Your logic astounds me!)
I’m happy to know you agree with slavery, you know all homosexuals are going to hell, you find women inferior, you accept that God can do whatever he wants,
You’re absolutely right! Your God is truly another being. An out-of-this-world being capable of and willing to grossly manipulate and destroy his creation while enforcing morals to the extreme contrary under the guise of “you can’t possibly understand me, therefor, you cannot question my actions.” I love your perception of your God. An invisible friend incapable of flaws and malintent who will be waiting for you in heaven! Wow, what a great God you have! Why the heck am I not still signed up for THAT one!? Geez!
Anyway, if you consider the ancient and barbaric traditions and actions contained in the bible to be applicable in this day and age and you wholeheartedly support such views, then you absolutely will find Christianity to be for you. Likewise, if you don’t care to learn about the beginnings of Christianity and the religions before it which it selectively (irony) picked and chose from, then Christianity is absolutely for you. If you choose to assume a book you believe in is full of truth and has no flaws, no discordant scenarios, etc., then Christianity is absolutely for you. If your idea of God is all things good and everything to the contrary is simply left to the grossly misinterpreted “Satan” and the fact that God is above all and we’re not supposed to understand or question to the contrary, then Christianity is absolutely for you. Then again, you equated your son wanting to use your power tools to that of a human questioning God on actions of atrocity! Then, you chalked it up to God being that of another being and letting us know his actions are merited with the omnipotent verse found in Deuteronomy. That explains a lot, Glen. One verse there to justify ALL God has done in the bible that would otherwise be considered evil and wrongdoing. Great job making your whole case around one verse! No wonder you sleep well at night!
Make no mistake; believers like you make God fit into your plans. You don’t understand enough about your religion to fit into his. Just what IS your perception of God, Glen? And why do you not care to question the contrary actions carried out by your God? Would you not want to know why your birth father did everything God has done if he had done as such? Would you support your father and draw close to him, only paying attention to the good things he did if he previously murdered hundreds of thousands of people, contradictorily enforces a moral code he himself does not abide by, finds women inferior, condones slavery, condemns people to a place of eternal damnation, etc.; NONE of that even makes you BLINK at the “truth” of Christianity!? Man. If THAT doesn’t make you want to dig in, then you are truly beyond debating with in these regards. I marvel at your definition of logic, Glen.
Oh, and let me go ahead and say that I do indeed get caught up in saying so definitively that Christianity is a farce. I do realize that many of the points you’re taking away from what I’m saying are far from the proof a believer like you would ever consider admissible in your court of logic. I accept that and I wholly encourage you to continue asking me to prove my case. I can definitely see where I lack logic and rationale in my points thus far to a person with blind faith and the will to simply win an argument. You already know you’re not wrong going into all of this and with both of us having that attitude, I doubt much will be accomplished here. The only difference is I’ve been in your shoes in terms of having faith and being a Christian. I have also fulfilled steps 1-8 which I listed to you in addition to many, many others I haven’t listed.
Actually, when I read the bible the first time over the course of around 3 years, I definitely didn’t have the mindset I have now. I looked for morals and positive messages from God; feeling like all of God’s actions were just. I was also a young mind and didn’t view what I was reading with the sense of rationale and logic I did the second time around. My world view changed so much and I sought justification to reasoning to God’s actions. I spent the next 5-6 years reading my $100 investment of a companion bible so that I could understand even further the deeper meanings of the scriptures as written by great Christian apologists. Unfortunately, that’s where my faith was shattered and everything fell apart with my believe.
Suddenly, I felt that “connection” that I thought was God start to disappear. Death became finite and my importance in the grand scheme of life and death became null and void. I was alone. INCREDIBLY alone. I was so sad and confused by the understanding I was coming to. Then, I fought harder than ever to maintain my faith and justify believing in Christianity while turning a blind eye to the things that I considered so very wrong. How could I continue to believe in a God who had done so many terrible things, then turn around and expect perfection from those created in his image? How?
Here I am today. Agnostic, having studied Christianity to great depths (both from the perspectives to find truth in it and truth about it; very different) in addition to the other great religions of the world (past and present). Don’t get me wrong, I still have a HELL of a lot to learn! That said, I’ve learned enough to know Christianity is birthed from previous religions and the reason God doesn’t add up is because the Christian God is perhaps man’s most complex creation. For everything there was no accounting for, there exists passages of ambiguity to justify them.
Anyway, my proofs that Christianity is a farce definitely won’t translate to you as it takes much more than I could ever present to you here in a few posts. All sarcasm and personal justifications aside, I maintain that my 1-8 list provides a VERY strong basis for questioning that which you believe. If you don’t want to take those steps seriously, then I accept you have no desire to do anything but justify your God for whatever reason. Yeah, I remember those days… faith is powerful.
Oh, and being away from it all now, I’m not conflicted in the least. I feel more at peace than I have ever felt in my life. I know me saying that will translate to you as “he’s going to hell” but that’s alright. I no longer fear death and while I wholeheartedly denounce Christianity as I do, I still feel the connection I used to attribute to it. When I look at the sky, when I just feel completely peaceful… yeah, I know I appear through these posts of mine as a morally bankrupt, hell-bound cynic but I’m quite content. I just wish I could get one – just ONE – believer like you to dare to see it from my perspective. Then again, why would you want to when it could potentially mean a ticket straight to hell? Oh, what an all-powerful, loving and understanding God!
-Stephen
PS – DJ, if you’re reading this, I appreciate you allowing us to hash this out on your blog. You could be like many other believers I’ve come into contact with and delete posts as you see fit but you’re allowing this to continue. I do appreciate it. =)
August 11, 2008 at 10:46 am
DJ – Zoroaster was regarded as a prophet who spread the teachings of his monotheistic religion and supposedly performed miracles just as your Jesus Christ supposedly did. Now, I find Zoroastrianism to be as false as Christianity but the links to both should slap you in the face. And as for my proof that Christianity is a farce, reference my new post above. You want to talk about being dodgy, you Christians are KING at that!
The verses I provided weren’t to display how Christian is false, but rather to ask you people of faith, “do you condone and support this behavior?” You know, do you accept and acknowledge that you follow a God who has supposedly been as loving as he has that of Hitler. You want to talk about taking verses out of context, that’s what Christianity is LITTERED with! You just proved my point that it should be necessary to read the whole bible to get the full picture and scope of everything! Until then, it’s just verse contradicting verse with who freakin’ knows HOW many justifications to support both Christian apologists and non-believers! Such a convoluted nature helps to maintain the mysticism of the bible and enables its believers to continue as they want; not as they should.
I mean, you’ve both only taken to main addressing how my posting of a few verses isn’t proof of Christianity being false. lol. Forget everything else I posted! Could it be I meant for there to be an encompassment of all previouly noted points IN ADDITION TO the verses I’ve quoted? Nah. That would make too much sense! And just where have I failed to address the question of logic again?
-Stephen
August 11, 2008 at 11:25 am
Typos, much, Stephen? Sheesh. Sorry about that, fellas. lol.
Where applicable:
*belief
*Christianity
*mainly
*any others I missed which are blatantly obvious.
-Stephen
August 11, 2008 at 11:55 am
Oh, DJ… and those verses back in post 188 were supposed to be taken for face value; not as proof of anything other than you condone and support everything written in the bible. Just as I detest a God who would do such things and enforce such hypocritical standards, I detest the beliefs of a person who supports and follows as such. (Note: I’m sure you’re just fine as a person and I’m sure we could have a drink and get along with just about anything but religion and politics. I just fail to see how you can read such verses and turn around and ask me essentially, “what’s the big deal?” )
-Stephen
August 11, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Attack the close parenthesis smiley!
August 11, 2008 at 2:22 pm
“I do realize that many of the points you’re taking away from what I’m saying are far from the proof a believer like you would ever consider admissible in your court of logic.”
Stephen, are you saying that logic is relative based on presuppositions? Or is one logic different (i.e. better than) from another? If so, how do we know which one is best if no absolutes exist? I thought logic was simply logic. I agree that you actually HAVE made a huge leap that you’ve yet to logically explain. (These 8 things = God is a farce. Or even these 1,329 things = God is a farce.) That God dealt with generations differently based on the time and place does not mean he’s a farce. Go back and read a Farmer’s Almanac from 1875 and you’ll read lots about how to fix your wagon or buggy or even how to draw up papers on how to free your slave! Does this mean it wasn’t relative to the people then or even a good lesson for those of us today to look back on as a chronicle of human history?
There are those who have read the whole Bible, read it again and again and again.. that would put us all to shame- these people still believe in the God of the Bible even more than they did before. So, the idea that somehow reading the WHOLE Bible will prove God out to be a ‘farce’ is itself a farce and a rather weak argument.
Back to my earlier comment: Jesus’ claims to be God clearly separate him from the other false prophets, both in antiquity and in 2008. A good many agnostics and atheists regard Jesus as a great prophet with lots of great ideas, but they’re equally as dismissive of his lunatic claim to be God. So, which is he? Lunatic or great prophet? Couldn’t be both logically, as you’d have to toss out all his ideas as lunacy.
~David
P.S. I welcome anyone to discuss this topic or any other on my blog. Education happens in these forums, so long as we keep language clean and make valid points. Thanks for thanking me, Stephen.
August 11, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Glen-
I killed the smiley for you!
~David
August 11, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Stephen,
You still haven’t addressed the burning question: what is “Meh?”
Anyway, thanks for walking into that smiley thing just to make me feel less humiliated.
That was a long post and there’s a lot to think about in there. Give me a day or two to respond.
BTW, you guys need to lay off Zoroaster. I used Zoroastrianism as the basis for a really cool D&D campaign when I was 13 or 14. I still have very fond memories for that game — so don’t tread on my childhood glories!
David, if you don’t know what Zoroastrianism is, try reading C. S. Lewis or Chesterton. These guys covered this line of attack on Christianity about 40-50 years ago. What they came up with is some really interesting, soul-searching stuff about myth, folktales and the hero with a thousand faces. Lewis talks about the Dying God at length (which is what Stephen is probably talking about with Egyptian mythology). Start with Lewis and work your way out from there.
-Glen
August 11, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Stephen,
You wrote:
“Such a convoluted nature helps to maintain the mysticism of the bible and enables its believers to continue as they want; not as they should.”
This is a very good point. Let me ruminate…
-Glen
August 11, 2008 at 3:45 pm
DAN!!!
I missed you! Still wack after all these… days… you’ve got a little truth mixed in just to make it nice and sweet and then.. BAM.. a universalist comment! Tsk, tsk.. Welcome back! The water’s fine. Your input is welcome here.
~David
August 11, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Easy on the rumination, there, Glen. I heard it makes one go blind!
Thanks for the Lewis suggestion. He’s definitely on my list- would this be Mere Christianity? An excellent book I’ve threatened to read for years… now, probably before Christmas gets here. If another, please do tell.
~David
August 11, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Glen and Stephen…
According to Isaiah, Jesus and Paul, a person’s very nature is inclined to the bad, not the good (including believers prior to regeneration). So how could (and WHY WOULD) the Bible enable us to continue as we WANT, not as we SHOULD, if what we WANT is bad? This is illogical from a theological standpoint. That’s my rumination. Hey, who turned out the lights?
~David
August 11, 2008 at 4:12 pm
David: I do admit that I haven’t had much experience at all with this type of debate and I can blur the lines between how I feel about religion, Christianity in particular, and God. Allow me to kind of start from scratch and clarify where I can:
First, let’s not delve too deep into where we’re going with this whole “logic” thing. Logic is logic is logic but my logic has led me to much different conclusions than yours. Not that mine is superior to yours – I don’t mean to imply that at all – but I suppose that with all I have studied and learned, I have so much information I want to get out there and just as PASSIONATELY as I felt when I was Christian to spread the word of God, I am now PASSIONATE about trying to eradicate Christianity in its current form.
David, I noticed up towards the first 20 or 30 comments or so that you are an advocate for the word of God, Jesus, and Christianity at their core; NOT for religion, per se. Additionally, you’ve obviously spoken with many people who have what you consider to be a false or tarnished image of God stemming from bad experiences in a religious upbringing. Okay. Completely valid but I’m not sure it’s wholly representative of as many non-believers as you seem to attribute it to.
You see, the reason I consider my 8 points (really only, what… 5 or 6 since I wrote to read the bible a couple/few times?) so relevant is because of what you learn by studying the religions prior to Christianity. Again, I know how small that list looks and my proof is obviously not proof to you (hence why I made the comment about the difference in our logic regarding the bible).
I fully realize there are people who have read the bible and believe in the God encompassed in it but at what conclusions or cost? Sure, you could ascertain that one must find the bible completely sound to read it even once and continue to believe in it and it is such a result I continuously forget about due to how deep I have delved into all of this. I just cannot fathom one reading the bible with complete thoroughness and understanding and coming on the other side believing it.
That being said, here’s where it gets a little tricky for what I personally believe! (I’ll quit throwing around the “Christianity is false” comments because they’re going to get me nowhere here) True; there are GREAT moral lessons contained in the bible and where one sees an individual living their whole life believing in God, others see all of the negativity and atrocity going on around the world in the name of the very same God. Who’s wrong? Who’s logic is flawed? The mild-mannered, forgiving new-age Christian or the die-hards killing in the name of as commanded by God in so many passages in the Old Testament! THEN, you take into account the various translations of the bible, the fact that only 4 out of 50 gospels were chosen, all of the similarities Christianity has notably taken from pre-Christianity religions such as pagan, Egyptian religion, Zoroastrianism, Judaism (not hard fact but… if you’re interested, there’s a lot to make you go “hmm”), and much more.
Now, it has been noted that when you take away all of the links seemingly corresponding between Christianity and other religions, you end up with the barebones teachings of Jesus which are focused solely on that of the moral message. The morals are great but even the idea of God, heaven, hell, the crucifiction, miracles, ALL of that supernatural stuff that could very well have been taken from other religions leaves one with the moral teachings of one Jesus Christ – of whom is quite likely to not have even existed just like those predating him who he was quite likely molded from. Look into the comparisons of Horus and Jesus. It’s quite amazing. Check this out:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
Nothing to go changing up your beliefs necessarily, but once I started digging into this and comparing historical timelines… Christianity appears more and more like an amalgam of various religions before it.
Personally, I see Jesus Christ as nothing more than a myth and if he’s the prophet of the bible, then the moral teachings are definitely great. Other than that, there is just too me that appeals to my personal logic to the contrary of Christianity. I don’t contest the notion of a God. Just the God of Christianity. What other Atheists/Agnostics feel is up to them. I hope you find debating with me to be a new experience for you in regards to debating with a non-believer. Quite possibly not but I definitely do not fit the mold of your tragic religious upbringing.
More later. Time to go home!
-Stephen
August 11, 2008 at 9:01 pm
David, your warm welcome brings that fuzzy feeling one gets before a proctology examination. You know, right before they stick that cold thing up your. . . well, you know what I mean. Anyway, I don’t think your church would allow me to stand on the pulpit very long. In fact, they would probably drag me to the door and toss me out on my ear. I believe Christ was treated in a similiar manner in his day. No, I’m not Christ, or even close. But the churches of modern day Babylon would treat Him the same way, today (of course they wouldn’t know who He is).
You know, I’m tired of citing all of those scriptures for no apparent reason. It’s time for you, David, to tell me how a god torturing people for all eternity for no redeeming value, would not make god evil!! Tell me how people can be created weak, without asking to be created, given some (non-scriptural) free-will, and expected to live righteously on their very own, only to face billions and trillions of eons (forever) of torture for not believing in a God, that they never saw or heard. Don’t give me this crap about people choosing hell. Nobody would, or could do such a thing.
Who accepts Christ? Those “given” some measure of the holy spirit. Every choice made in this life (and to come) is based on the law of “cause and effect”. Who is the first cause of all? Who do you think?
I’m sorry that so many have to believe in false christ’s for God’s purpose to be accomplished (Actually, I’m quite happy knowing that God has a purpose for all of the evil that we face during our short lives).
So, answer my question!!
How is “your” god not evil?
I’m glad you welcome me but we are not brothers in any way,,,,yet!!!
May God remove your blinders if that is His will at this time.
August 12, 2008 at 10:37 am
Stephen,
Here’s something I picked up on… you said, “True; there are GREAT moral lessons contained in the bible…”
Here’s what I can’t understand (and follow the logic here) : Atheists and agnostics say they believe in a basic morality; some even admit that the Bible has great moral lessons. Where does this morality come from? How do we know what is moral? Might killing your neighbor be considered ‘moral’ in other societies, while being considered ‘immoral’ here? Probably not. I think cold-blooded killing is universally condemned as evil no matter what society you’re in. Why is that?
My thinking goes something like this: If you are going to say that there is a basic morality that exists, you’re going to have to leave a little room for the REASON we have it. How do we know what good and evil are? Why do we have a sense of that at all? And what is evil, anyway? Where did it come from? I’ve not read any philosophy that explains it better that what I find in the Bible.
Were you ever on staff at a church? Just curious. Seems to me, if you’ll read some of my other stuff here, that churches have really gone to the extremes of liberalism and left the core teaching of scripture behind. Perhaps you’ve become disillusioned and burnt out to the point that it just is a big ‘farce’ to you? I’m not trying to psychoanalyze you, to be sure. I’ve met others that had these experiences. It seems a common theme of “I used to be Christian, but then…” is rampant in the atheistic/agnostic communities.
By the way, that Yanni piano piece you were trying to play on YouTube… did you ever get that under your fingers? You seem like a cool guy, Steve. Wish I could play guitar like that! (But I definitely have you beat on the piano!!)
August 12, 2008 at 10:47 am
Glen:
Re: Post #210: Behold the answer to your burning question! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meh
lol.
Also Re: Post #210: I haven’t read C.S. Lewis’ or Chesterton’s books regarding Zoroaster and I’m not sure I care to after seeing you refer to it as you have. The reason I say that is because I don’t refer to Zoroastrianism and Egyptian mythology simply to attack Christianity. I mean, I guess it could be considered an attack but my point of bringing it all up is to aid in the study of Christianity.
If you will, consider the way I go about most of the things in my life: I have to break things down to their very core and start there. When I write a song, when I write a poem, when I’m taking a road trip, when I’m planning anything, when I work on improving myself; I mean, that is just the theme I have come to running my life by! I NEED to understand and have firm reasoning before carrying out an action. Right now, the way I see faith in God is no different than someone having faith in jumping off a cliff; only, empirical evidence exists to suggest why someone shouldn’t have faith in jumping off of anything of considerable height. Faith in God/Faith in jumping off of a cliff. Truly not one in the same but I’m not even taking yet into consideration the things the bible says. I’m speaking purely of faith in and of itself.
Yes, you can consider my mind “weak and human” and if you do, I recently had a way to sum up why an Agnostic like me gets so upset when you say such things: “I won’t tell you you’re wrong but don’t dare tell me you’re right.” The fact is, no one is RIGHT about a God. No one knows. you either believe or you don’t. For whatever reasons you have; whether you’re a Christian, a Branch Dividian, a Jehova’s Witness, a Mormon, a Catholic, a Satanist, a Pagan, a Zoroastrian, etc. DJ, you said it yourself; “What if I’m right?” Well… what if you’re wrong? You don’t KNOW you’re right; you just believe with your whole being you’re right.
Okay, so what if you’re right? Well, what does a person like me need to do to even surmise if your belief is indeed the “one and only” belief? It’s not through the bible itself because one needs to first believe in its contents and if you’re COMPLETELY religionless and you choose to study various religions, DJ, I’m not sure if you understand just how passionate others are about their religions and why they also believe they’re wholeheartedly right. Anyway, I can’t just read the bible of Christianity; no, I need to go deeper than that. But Christianity is so strong! So valid! How could so many people be wrong? Well… why not try to go back to its foundation. Who wrote the bible? Where did the writings originate? Which religions existed prior to Christianity and what did they believe? Did they have texts like the bible? Is the information in such texts historically factual or proven in any way? What about the 10 commandments?
Okay, then I start getting into the foundations of this country and all the mentions of God by our politicians, in the pledge of allegience, etc. Hmm… this God must be pretty significant! I had no idea until recently that this country was found on the notion of God NOT as the God of Christianity but from the Deist perspective of our founding fathers. I HIGHLY recommend delving into writings by our founding fathers in relation to God, politics, etc. I just received a book titled “Liars for Jesus.” It’s basically about how Christians have used religion to twist the perception of the FACTS of American history. It’s very interesting so far and is the fruition of 3 years of extensive research, documenting, and writing. This isn’t just a book full of opinion. Everything is backed up by hard facts with sources (like actual documents themselves) provided at every turn. It’s not anti-Christian; it’s just about how the religion has been used by Christians to push their belief and twist the facts of our history. Anyway, I digress.
Back to what I was saying, when your mind is not bound (yeah, yeah… I know it’s “free will” that you believe as you choose to but bear with me for a second) by your religion, you see it all from a completely different perspective. I know this because I was once a believer. Refer to previous posts as to how I ended up where I am if you’re wondering. I look at the world around me and I don’t just see churches of my denomination. I see many religions, many beliefs, many churches, many people searching for something to believe in. I just… I can’t fathom a God sending a person like me to a place of eternal damnation because I see his teachings littered with things that would normally be considered evil! I’m sorry; it doesn’t matter how many GOOD things a person has done, if they premeditatedly take a person’s life out of anger (much less TONS of people), not *too* many people are going to view them in a good light. Nevermind the fact that you should just consider these people your creation! Your children. Okay, so God is supposedly another being claiming the ability to lead by… what? Not example! Okay, so then that puts the belief in a whole new realm!
For me, I’m not still just a Christian going to church. I’m not still just some person who believes as most people in his region believes; friends, family, etc. I’m not just… paying attention to the propaganda and only the “good” things about God, no. I mean, take your belief, take your God, take his sayings, his commandments and make it all local. Apply it to something you CAN wrap your mind around. Does it still fit? It sure didn’t for me!
Now, this is the point where I quit viewing my life, my actions, and the potential consequences of my actions as automatically applying to the rules set forth by a God I believed in for the first 18, 19, or 20 years of my life. I had to flush my mind of that. Start anew. DJ, I get it when you tell people so negatively affected by religion to strip themselves of it and just believe in Christianity but you just can’t even begin to imagine what all that can imply for any given individual!
Anyway, so I got to that point and then I said, well… this book (the bible) is considered to be the word of God. It was obviously written by man, so let me delve deeply into its origins, its historicity, etc. Nevermind what’s in it for now; I just want to look into its conception. Who was this word of God given to? What is the origin of the bible itself? From there, the floodgates opened. You start seeing the writing of the bible and certain stories in it, characters, etc. coming together like an episode of forensic files (only it comes together in a span of time much longer than an hour. lol) It’s not defiance of God, it’s not me wanting to live my life selfishly and as some heathen, no. Nothing could be further from the truth! My truth. You just start seeing where Jesus and his miracles are ripped seemingly DIRECTLY out of previous mythology and religions existing prior to the Hebrew writers and thus, their religion.
I mean, look at Judaism. Look at Islam. Look at the religions existing prior to Christianity. How can you ignore that and not consider it relevant to at least study to verify what you believe? The answers you may find
And DJ, you can justify your belief and your faith with things like “well, there are people who have read the bible a gazillion times and still believe in God” all day long but at the end of the day, I hope you can see the fallacy in such justifications. Does reading the bible one time or 20 make one a scholar? Does it make THEM right, and thus, you and your religion right? Absolutely not. Now, it doesn’t necessarily make you WRONG either… but you see, that’s where digging in like I am goes to show you that, yeah… you just might be wrong and you could very well be believing in a farce! You may be attempting to live your life by the morals in the bible and you may have all the best of intentions at heart but at the end of it all, do you really need the God and the heaven and hell to abide by such morals? Not at all.
So then after a fair amount of time of rationalizing to myself in the aforementioned means, I ask myself, “why believe in a God? What will believing in a God do for me?” Again, forget about the bible for a second! Forget the reason that not believing in your God will result in eternal damnation. Take that away for a bit. Take away the reward, take away the damnation. Now. Why believe in God? Why do you need God? What does God do for you? What do you do for God! Where is God? Do you see God? Do you feel God? Remember… not the God you believe in with the rewards, consequences, 10 commandments, etc. Just… do you feel God.
Now, apply that feeling to the negativity in the bible. Sure, there is the positive but remember to make it local! Put it in terms you can hold and then ask yourself if you TRULY want to forget about all of that just to justify Christianity! You may find that… yes, you do! And if you do, you certainly have someone like me absolutely stumped! You may find that you absolutely believe in God but how could that God with those feelings you feel do some of the things he did to those in the bible? Okay, let’s assume you feel like it was justified not because God can do whatever, but because they were people he considered bad. Well… why has God not done something about the truly evil people here?
On and on and on and on and on, etc. etc. It just goes on. Now, I’m going through the bible once more just to affirm with myself that even though I still get intrigued at times by it, it’s nothing more than residuals from my 20-year upbringing and believing in it. Grasping on to the GOOD and throwing out the bad. Neverminding the things I wholeheartedly disagree with. Now, I’m Agnostic. I do not know if a God exists. I know I do feel a certain peace and a great appreciate and love for my life, those around me, the sky, the
That’s where I am. I stand as the antithesis of many of the things I see God do in the bible and no, his exception to the rule is no exception to me. I’m not defiant against a God. I’m not some child wishing to do something I can’t do. It’s not like I’m in a grocery line begging daddy for a candy bar or something. This is much greater than that. This is holding God to accountability and you know what? I choose to believe that such actions from God are not what I would expect from a God who is anything like me.
What makes me so special? Everything to me and absolutely nothing to you. I’m not creating a God… I’m just rationalizing and holding firm to my beliefs, morals, and that includes holding those accountable for their actions. If you are indeed right and everything I’ve studied and seen leading up to how I view Christianity is wrong, then nothing changes for me. Eternal damnation is not scary enough and heaven is not great enough to make me forget about the things I feel the God of Christianity should be held accountable for.
I don’t want a eutopia on earth when I die. I do not want a land of milk and honey. I don’t want a freakin’ reward. I want the people I love. I want
Is that wrong? Perhaps it is and if so, then I accept I’m going to suffer an eternity if you are right, DJ. Is your heaven worth giving up everything you care about here to take your place next to your God? Not just the God you know, but the God I’ve outlined. The very same God. The God capable of so much that is good and so much that he should be held accountable for. You live your whole life feeling like you’re worthless and need to be forgiven… WHY!? Do you REALLY feel like you’re that worthless because a book tells you that you are? Why shouldn’t you forgive God for his own contradictions, actions, etc.?
See, and then I just take all of that away and trust in the results I have thus far that Christianity and any other religion promising ANYTHING after death is not worth my time to believe in. I want to believe in something greater, trust me. I was obedient to my mom and I’ve always been a very respectful young man. If there was such a God who commanded as such, I would absolutely be that but not to the God of Christianity. Not without some answers. Yes, I feel I’m that worth it. I don’t feel worthless at all. I don’t feel like a sinner, I don’t feel like I’m a part of Adam, Eve, or any of that crap. Why do I think slavery is condoned in the bible? Because we are slaves if you are right, DJ. Slaves to a fate determined long before us. Slaves to the actions of people who we don’t know and may very well reprimand ourselves if we did!
Accepting the weight of something like sin is like you accepting the weight of slavery because you are a white male and someone up your like may have been a slave owner. Do you agree that you should be held accountable for that? Do you feel as that person felt? I don’t!
It’s in such a mindset that I find the flaw of Christianity and expectations placed on its believers are greater than they could EVER imagine. Dig in, DJ. I’m not trying to convert you (but even if I was, you have no right to tell me I’m wrong for doing so… and I’m sure you’re smart enough to know why =) ), I’m just trying to get people to see it differently. Why wouldn’t you want to look at your belief from all sides? See your God for who he REALLY IS! He is everything you think he is and so many things you don’t. He is good and evil. His actions, questionable. His giving of free will, questionable when putting it in terms of our ULTIMATE free will being taken away by automatically placing us in this game of sin. “Will you follow me or not?” Call me loopy, but no; I will not. Not because I want to defy you, but because I disagree THIS MUCH with the unexplainable atrocities and absolutely horrid and barbaric mentalities found in the bible.
Anyway, I’ll shut my mouth now. I just wanted to try to take a little bit of a different approach. I truly have come to where I am through much mental anguish and intense searching, longing, wanting to believe, wanting to have faith, etc. Unfortunately, it’s as if your God recreated humans in the same manner as he did in the old testament, only back then, he took matters into his own hands a lot of the time. Now, people are even worse and he wants to see if people will just… come around on their own? lol. What a cruel game placed upon the children of a father/creator. I can’t imagine doing as such with my children. Oh, I’ll love them! I’ll love them to death but what you believe of your God? No way.
I’m sorry for such a long read. Thanks for reading.
-Stephen
PS – David, Re: Post 214: When I made this comment, “Such a convoluted nature helps to maintain he mysticism of the bible and enables its believers to continue as they want; not as they should…” I didn’t mean that the bible enables believers to continue as they want. I meant the lack of understanding of everything that’s in it and the abuse of the meanings of passages allows people to interpret the bible as they so choose. This allows them to fit God to their needs and wants; not the other way around. In other words, if you’re going to believe in the bible, believe in the bible. I used to do the same stuff but now, I see the bible for everything that it is and instead of trying in vain to feel a connection to the God of Christianity in spite of all the negative things I see in the bible, I simply choose to believe none of it. Why do I choose that? Read this post again and posts prior to get the picture. Yes, my case is based mostly on logic, but also to making sense of the connection I felt back then and even to this day. Something just feels right to me to have come to the conclusion I’ve come to. Maybe what’s going on is much, much greater than any religion or existence theory currently on this earth. I know I sound like a loon to you but it all makes perfect sense to me.
August 12, 2008 at 11:14 am
David: Re: Post #217: I completely follow your logic and rationale! I experienced the very same thoughts! But you see, this is where my emphasis on looking before the bible comes into play. Even the 10 commandments is questioned as to where they were birthed (hint: it was before the hebrew writings, thus, the bible!) and as such, I have to recommend that you look outside of the bible to find places where you can see morality and good and evil defined just as well sans all the other filler! Defined by philosophies from other humans; just as was written by humans for the bible.
In regards to being on staff at church, I was involved but not so much as to be considered staff. I was in the choir when I was younger, went on youth trips all the time, etc. You’re just going to have to trust me when I tell you that my current state of being Agnostic has nothing to do with anything but problems I discovered for myself when choosing to delve MUCH deeper into what I believed as it started to not conform with my world view. Basically, I got the glory of God! I got the love of God and I got all the GOOD things of God from the bible… but never the bad. Even when scriptures were read of things I would disagree with today, they were crafted into some sort of moral lesson and question God and that lesson was certainly out of the equation.
No, the only thing wrong that happened to me was the religion itself when my 20-year belief came crashing down (and believe me, I tried REEEEAAAALLLLLLY HARD to hang on to it and ignore the questions that started coming to mind). I shifted my focus and dared to face my fears head on of questioning what I believed. This is why I really must ask you to throw out your current perception of Agnostics/Atheists when debating with me. None of that applies to me!
And no, I haven’t played the piano since that one video… sadly. One of these days, I’ll buy one and teach myself but until then, guitar is a great outlet. =) Thanks for listening and watching. I always appreciate viewers/listeners. If you have any musical content posted, I’d be more than happy to take a listen. I appreciate musicianship of all kinds! Even given the way I feel about religion, I definitely appreciate Gospel music (not boring hymns, lol) as it has given birth to some great musicians! Definitely a positive to come out of religion but I, personally, take the good with the bad and thus why I feel like I do about religion… even with all of its moral goodness. Morals came along long before the bible, my friend, and even if you view the bible as the ultimate source for those morals, God himself not only defined them but openly defied them. I’ve always favored leading by example. Following a God is no exception to that rule for me.
-Stephen
August 12, 2008 at 11:35 am
I apologize for that really long post having a few incomplete paragraphs. I had other points I wanted to address that came to mind and I wanted to write them as they came to me. Let me complete the three incomplete paragraphs:
Paragraph 1: I mean, look at Judaism. Look at Islam. Look at the religions existing prior to Christianity. How can you ignore that and not consider it relevant to at least study to verify what you believe? The answers you may find may shake the very foundations of what you believe and trust me, it’s pure mental HELL for a while to experience the loneliness of Godlessness after being a God-fearing person for so long.
Paragraph 2: On and on and on and on and on, etc. etc. It just goes on. Now, I’m going through the bible once more just to affirm with myself that even though I still get intrigued at times by it, it’s nothing more than residuals from my 20-year upbringing and believing in it. Grasping on to the GOOD and throwing out the bad. Neverminding the things I wholeheartedly disagree with. Now, I’m Agnostic. I do not know if a God exists. I know I do feel a certain peace and a great appreciation and love for my life, those around me, the sky, the things I have, the things I consider my gifts… so very many things I love, appreciate, etc. I want to attribute those things to something greater. Unfortunately, it doesn’t fit at all with the God of Christianity.
Paragraph 3: I don’t want a eutopia on earth when I die. I do not want a land of milk and honey. I don’t want a freakin’ reward. I want the people I love. I want the things I love on this earth, such as music, debate, looking at the stars and the sky and being awestricken, etc. No, I don’t want to kill people, look at porn, go to strip clubs, do drugs, drink, party, etc. I’ve never tried drugs and I’ve never been to a strip club. Big deal, I know but people who first meet me as this metalhead musician with a shaved head simply don’t believe I haven’t done any number of things I’ve ALWAYS found to be pointless (even without the morals set by religion). Anyway, I don’t want what the God of Christianity offers and I don’t want to give that God praise and appreciation above everything earthly that I love, respect, and care about. My mother, those who love me the most… I will not look above them and give them up in the name of a God. Perhaps that’s to be considered a flaw but so be it. I accept the flaws in me of all the things I consider perhaps morally questionable but even those things are of no consequence to anyone. Quite frankly, I live, I love, I play my music, I grow as a person, I seek more meaning, etc. If I had continued to just believe, I would have limited myself SOOOOOO MUCH that I just can’t believe a God who made me in this capacity would want me THAT limited if he truly knew me as he supposedly does. It just doesn’t fit. At all.
-Stephen
August 12, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Dan,
I’m exhausted trying to explain the Bible to you, man. You can’t take scripture out of context like you’re doing! That’s just wrong.
So, in keeping with the proctologist theme, bend over and read on (he says, slapping the rubber glove on his right hand) … A few sayings of Jesus Christ himself give evidence:
Matthew 8:12
…while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:42
…and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50
…and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13
Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 24:51
and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Luke 13:28
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.
Then there’s John:
Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The list could go on and on. I would encourage you to correctly exegete the passages you mention as proof. I don’t have to explain God because I don’t know anything about Him apart from what the Bible tells me. He is holy, we are not. His ways are higher than mine:
Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I can’t explain how the space shuttle works either, I just accept that it does. God didn’t create us to make us happy or even to be fair to everyone equally as we count fairness. I’ll admit that if I were God, I’d be a bit more accepting, but that’s because my nature is sinful, Dan! God is holy and has no sin, so how can I rightly judge His actions based on my sinful and tainted view of reality. I will not fully know these mysteries until I can ask God face to face. I can only go by the WHOLE of scripture, not selected passages, like you’ve done. You seem to think that God thinks within our time/space continuum, but He’s not limited that way, nor is He obligated to completely reveal himself to anyone. He is God. He is holy. He is infinite.
So, ‘my’ God is not evil, but rather is a loving God who, quite unfairly, according to scripture, has chosen to redeem a chosen people for His glory alone. And according to scripture, ‘fair’ would be eternal separation from our Creator.
August 12, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Yeah, I know you’re a Calvanist. That guy seemed to understand that we do not have any such thing as a free-will (but he twisted scripture around so that people do have free will in their daily choices, but not in whether they are chosen from the beginning.) The man was sick and has much blood on his head.
Now, the above scriptures you quote, are undoubtedly concerning judgement. They concern the very Lake of Fire that I have futily tried to explain to you. So what da devil doctrine does fire have to do with God’s very purpose and love?
Let’s see!!
Rev. 1:14
“His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of fire”
1 Pet. 1:7
“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ”
James 3:6
“And the tongue is a fire. . . The tongue is constituted among our members that which is spotting the whole body.
Heb 1:7
“And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire”
1 Cor. 3:13
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is”
Heb. 12:29
“For our God is a consuming fire”
Rom. 12:20
“Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head”
Luke 3:16
“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”
Mark 9:49
“For Every One shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt”
Malachi 3:2
“But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”
Zeph. 3:8
“. . .For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy”
Ezek. 38;19
For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken” (Uh oh, that must be talking about hell. . . . . . . . . . . . .NOT).
Lamentations 1:13
“From above has He sent fire into my bones. . .
Jer. 23:29
“Is not My word like as a fire? Saith the Lord”
Psalm 104:4
“Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming Fire”
Matt. 3:11
I indeed baptized you with water unto repentance: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Matt. 3:12
Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His (threshing) floor, and gather His wheat into the garner, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Wish I could bold face every use of fire above.
Why is this fire unquenchable. Wasn’t Gahenna fire also unquenchable? It isn’t burning any more, is it?
Well, the fire is unquenchable because it must burn out on its own, just like Gehenna did. Once all of the impurities are burned out, this spiritual fire (and I do mean spiritual) will have nothing else to burn. It will then go out.
DJ, do you understand spiritual things? I don’t think you do!! Contiune reading!!
Now, about nashing of teeth:
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Ahha, they’re on fire. See, they’re in such pain that they are wailing and gnashing their teeth. See. . .
Gnashing-Stiking the teeth together, as in anger, rage or pain.
What happened right before they martyred Stephen.
Act 7:54
When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. (In other words, they were pissed.)
Psalm 112
The wicked man will see and be vexed, he will gnash his teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing.
Folks, gnashing of teeth has nothing to do with being burned, rather it deals with being in a state of anger, rage and nervousness. This symbolic Lake of Fire will not be a pleasant experience.
DJ, Ask God for a spirit of sight. If you’ve read everything I’ve written, you’ll see that your god is evil and not the real God of the scriptures. I wish you well in your spiritual journey, as soon as it begins.
P.S.
You got that right!! You will know the truth when you’re looking God right in the face. It’ll be great.
August 12, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Stephen,
Thanks for that great post, man. This is so unfair, because I want to respond with about 60,000 words of my own, but I would be up all night and I have to get to work very early.
Suffice to say, I understand and respect your position. I can identify with your moral objections to the bible on a very personal level — this is something I struggled with for a long time. Maybe I’ll be able to get back to this site in another day or two and respond in detail, but let me just say I totally appreciate where you’re coming from on that part.
Now, on the origins of Christianity, I’m afraid I can’t agree with you. There’s more to that part of the story than you have uncovered. Let me see if I can condense some of it down.
C.S. Lewis said that he was not at all surprised by how much came into Christianity from older pagan religions. He thought that the Old Testament showed god trying to get people ready for the big central event of redemptive history – the incarnation and the crucifixion. To this end, god planted the images of sacrifice, purification, substitution, holiness and so on all through his dealings with his people in the OT. But, what’s more, he sent us what Chesterton called “good dreams.” They purposed that the Dying God, the God-man and other pre-Christian ideas arose out of God’s implanting certain mythic images somewhere deep in our souls. (Man, it sounds lame when I say it, but Lewis had a way with words.)
Now, is this more likely than the direct explanation that Christianity arose from these other sources? No, it is not. But once you start comparing Christianity to other myths and folktales, you make some startling discoveries that require some explanation. You see, the skeptic’s theory runs something like this: Jesus was this teacher and motivator who gathered a fanatical following and then died quite suddenly. So later his followers started gathering up a bunch of his wise sayings and stringing them into a narrative. Along the way, they added elements from mysticism and mythology, and the tale grew in the telling. By the time the gospels were written, Jesus had become fictionalized and attributed with all kinds of magical powers and miraculous acts. This is, for example, exactly what happened to King Arthur and Saint Nicholas and Paul Bunion. All were based on real people who, over time, became folk heroes.
But here’s the kicker – I’ve played D&D since I was ten, and believe me, I know a thing or two about ancient mythology. So did Lewis (he taught Medieval Literature at Oxford, and learned Icelandic so he could read Norse myths in the original language). He points out that, if Jesus had become a folk figure, the gospels would not read the way they do. He said that he knew at once that the gospels were not mythology. “In one sense, they’re just not GOOD enough.” He also said that if the gospel accounts were produced by additive embellishment, they represent a kind of narrative realism that was never seen before about the fifteenth century. He gives the example of Jesus writing in the sand when the woman caught in adultery is brought before him. Yes, people can make this sort of thing up, but no one EVER did in antiquity. You can’t find one example.
Try this for yourself. Pick any five stories about Jesus and compare them to any five scenes from the Odyssey or King Arthur or Norse myth or Babylonian myth. You know what you’ll find? The gospels just don’t feel like mythology or folktales. They’re not even close. (The lone exception is the story of the magi coming to visit after Jesus’ birth. I have to admit, that story gives me considerable trouble to this day, because it jumps off the page as the kind of thing that feels like fairy-tale in the midst of a very historical narrative. I for one am willing to at least consider that this might have been some kind of additive embellishment.)
So what’s my point? In chasing down the possible historical roots of Christian myth, we actually run in to some very compelling evidence that the gospels (at least) are simply much more likely to be historical than mythical. Now, some people would claim that the very presence of miracles makes them very mythical indeed. Well, that’s a philosophical stance, not really proof. If you come to the gospels with the presupposition that there is no supernatural reality, then of course you have to expunge the miracles. But you can’t really prove that there is not supernatural reality, and I don’t think that’s what you’re trying to say in any case. So we’re back to the same question: do the gospels read like history or myth? Can we, by comparing them to histories and folktales from that period and before, determine if they are “tall tales” or if they are in fact reliable as historical documents? For me, this is very compelling proof, because I’m such a fan of mythology and the difference seem very clear to me. You may disagree, but it’s really something to think about.
Got to run. Stephen, thanks for your honesty and clear thinking.
-Glen
August 12, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Oh, BTW,
David, Please- for the love of Pete, stop arguing with Dan.
I have a feeling he is not very receptive to what you have to say-call me crazy.
-Glen
August 13, 2008 at 10:30 am
Hey Glen,
No crap Shirlock!!
August 13, 2008 at 11:21 am
Glen: YOU’RE CRAZY! (You told David to call you crazy, so I figured I would jump the gun and go ahead and say it myself. lol) Only kidding. =)
I’m glad we’ve moved past the condescending remarks. Though it’s a great motivator for debate, it’s really not conducive to a whole heck of a lot. Although, we have now ended up here, so WAS IT INDEED CONDUCIVE TO SOMETHING, HMMMMM? The world may never knoooooowwwww! lol.
Anyway, thank you for your feedback, Glen. I haven’t a doubt in my mind that you’re more (probably MUCH more) of an authority regarding mythology than I am. I don’t recall if I said it here or elsewhere in another religious debate, but for as much as I’ve learned for all I feel I currently know, I feel as though I know nothing yet. I speak definitively in regards to what I currently know and the things that make sense to me in the way they do (and vice versa) but behind the wall of my thought-driven posts isn’t a man who dislikes Christians. At the end of the day, I realize how I feel about PEOPLE, regardless of their religion, and I realize my gripe is more with Christianity in and of itself.
You see, I personally do not give much power at all to my past (it’s taken some time but to learn to free yourself of the mental burdens of your past is a very liberating experience), hence, I don’t regret anything. I may wish little things here and there like I wish I had been as into learning when I was in school as I am now but I don’t allow regrets to seep in. I really enjoy who I am, who I am becoming, etc. I am evergrowing and though I may come off quite combative, I am actually very, very humble and I do try very hard not to come off as hard-headed. I know it seems like I’m ringing my own bell here but I’m not. The point is, for as far as I’ve come with my personal practice to not allow my past to influence me negatively, I feel a little… gyped by Christianity. And because I have been living the past few years working hard on self-improvement, it’s been a while since I felt a factor of my past affect me like this.
Because of that, I keep having to remind myself that – through it all – I like where I am now. Likewise, I’m having to work really hard to separate my disdain for Christianity from its believers. Part of what helps me do that is to go back and remember what type of believer I was, how I felt, the (incredibly limited) extent of my biblical knowledge, how I had good intentions at heart and didn’t see a thing in the world wrong or faulty with my God, etc.
All of this is very new for me. Up until about 3 months ago, I spent a very long and difficult year struggling with death, existence, meaning of life, etc. I know me saying that had might as well be mock-worthy since I don’t care to delve into particulars but if you’ve ever been through it in any capacity other than just simply questioning it, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
I don’t feel at this point that Christianity helped me. Perhaps it did but I know that for me, personally, my moral compass was developed not from my fear of God but just out of not being a very malicious or emotionally callous person. The stereotypes of gender typically do not apply to me and quite frankly, I get miffed at people who are so quick to make generalizations. Anyway, I just… man, I don’t quite know how to explain it. Actually, here you go! This is going to sound funny and any Christian reading this will feel inclined to say, “see!?” but remember, I am very familiar with this: I just have faith that the path I’m on right now is not going to end up in eternal damnation.
Call me a heathen, call me a sinner, call me what you will; I just honestly do not believe in my heart (both on the surface and when I dig deep) that I am on a path to personal destruction. Quite frankly, I feel that I am more loving and caring than I EVER felt God was when I was a believer! Perhaps it’s the wrong approach to bring God down to my level and not give up my questions to ambiguous answers and implied words in the bible but… I have absolutely no reasoning or rationale that will currently allow me to see the God of Christianity in a loving light. None. And you know, this isn’t about me, me, me. This is my world view. This is my view of people who TRULY have it bad. Yeah, I know it’s all about personal perspective and the way one interprets and deals with the hand they’re dealt but that’s yet another reason I don’t feel the supposed love of the Christian God is universal. See, and I used to justify such cases as God having a plan. I used to just keep it ambiguous. It just quit making sense when I took what I believed and I made it local. When I put it into terms I could grasp and took away the mysticism, the ambiguity, the multiple translations, etc. There’s no DOUBT that one could spend their entire LIFE studying JUST the bible but it doesn’t make sense for me to do that when right from the START (Genesis), I read it and I go, “really?”
It’s almost as if Christianity is a test for us greater than many of us can even comprehend! It’s like taking EVERYTHING that speaks to the contrary of how we live, learn, love, etc. and we just… ball it up into this thing called “faith” and say, “God, you tell me I’m a sinner and that I live, learn, love, etc. the way I do because of my sinful nature. I don’t feel that way, but you tell me I do, so I’ll just go against everything that is tangible and everything that is instict and I will believe in you.” That’s just… man, what a hard pill to swallow. You know?
And to make it WORSE, add on to it that if you dare defy it in the face of many believers, they’ll make no bones about clarifying how wrong you are to even question it! They’ll tell you what your fate is going to be, they’ll tell you that you have a weak mind, you’re closed minded, etc. Speaking of that, that brings up another point! The bible preaches things that make it almost impossible to follow. Don’t be judgmental. Okay, well God is sitting there telling you what is supposedly in the hearts and minds of non-believers. God tells you what their fate is going to be and the bible spells out for you all the times non-believers were horrible to Jesus, God, etc.
I’m a non-believer and I look at the people mentioned in those stories as absolutely horrible human beings. Anyway, with so much to fill the mind of a believer as to the fate of a non-believer and what’s supposedly in their hearts and minds, how in the world are you expected to remain non-judgmental in the face of judgment when God himself was judgmental and freakin’ killed people because he was pissed off at them!?
Again, do as I say, not as I do. That’s not a very applicable theme to push on anyone but here again, Christianity seems to be so much about going against everything you are in hopes that you somehow do good enough to end up in heaven. It’s just a big mind job to me.
Now, what I’m saying is by far factual or empirical proof that Christianity is a farce. I need to learn to say that it’s proof TO ME. And at that, if I’m going to say that, I do indeed need to clearly state my case. Even as much as I’ve written here thus far, I know there are many more thoughts I could attribute to my rationale and “proof”. Now, that could all change just as drastically as I’ve gone from wholeheartedly believing in God to where I am today! If you had told me 10 years ago that I wouldn’t believe in Christianity 10 years down the road, I would’ve absolutely laughed my head off! Likewise, you could’ve told me a year ago that I would come to feel more peaceful at the thought of death as a non-believer than I’ve ever felt and I would’ve told you I highly disagree. I don’t know to where or how deep this rabbit hole is going for me but I have faith (there’s that word again, lol) that it’s not on a road to damnation. (Yes, I realize it’s certainly not on the road to salvation to you Christians, so please don’t worry about telling me what the bible says. Believe me; I know!)
Regarding the lack of the bible reading historically and not mythologically, I would like to learn more of your perspective on this, Glen. I’ve definitely only taken a very surface approach thus far to comparing Christianity to past religions and mythology but having acknowledged that, even just the limited amount of information I’ve run across thus far has really put the breaks on Christianity for me. Just as the one particular story you noted that has left an impression for you as being a potential embellishment, if you didn’t look earlier when I posted this link, take a look at this. Scroll about 1/4 of the way down the page and you will come across a chart that lists the comparisons between Horus and Jesus. The comparisons are… astounding, to say the least.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
Now, I’m not just taking that list as factual without looking into it myself but the things I’ve checked the validity of so far absolutely line up.
Yet another point of contention I have with Christianity is the fact that it’s SO convoluted. I just can’t wrap my mind around why it’s so complicated to know a God. I mean, you’ve got the apologists and the skeptics. BOTH have great points and though I certainly haven’t seen all arguments presented by both sides, I’ve looked at Christianity from the perspective of belief and to reaffirm such beliefs. Questions I have are not simply fueled by skepticism. I’m not trying to reiterate what others have said and my battle with Christianity is definitely not categorically the same as the Atheists and other non-believers have stated. At least for the time being, I have SO much more in common with the skepticism than I do the apologists. It’s kind of a case where many of the apologist’s explanations are aren’t nearly as satisfactory to me as my questions and the questions of many others. Again, this is just the beginning for me with all of this but… I’m learning exactly how to stay open-minded to all sides of the argument of existence, afterlife, etc. I guess you could say one of my biggest problems is when people of faith so vehemently tell me my fate. It just… infuriates me. I know it’s what they believe and I know proselitization is a part of their belief but it’s difficult to maintain patience and level-headedness in the face of that.
Now, I realize my perspective thus far may indeed be that of ignorance but even if so, what I feel in my heart and compare what I believed to what I can grasp and what I feel as a person, I’m left right back with the affirmation that I am doing exactly what I feel I need to be doing. Sometimes it’s difficult to keep reaffirming myself that I am indeed NOT the cruel-hearted, cruel-minded, selfish, moralless, and generally horrible hell-bound human being that so many believers can make a non-believer out to be. That is yet another problem I have with Christianity. In my opinion, the love of a God should be self-evident and made to appeal to what a person can connect to… WITHOUT the threat of damnation. That’s clearly just a personal belief and but one piece of this very, very, VERY large puzzle I’ve taken it upon myself to have a go at solving.
I appreciate the level-headed discussion we’ve arrived at. No worries about how long it takes you to discuss anything, Glen. I pretty much check this daily. If, down the road, you fear a lack of my presence to read something you’ve written, feel free to email me: uxevangelist AT gmail DOT com (I wrote my email address like that to obfuscate it to spam bots. Naturally, AT = @ and DOT = . ) I would enjoying continuing to pick your brain regarding why you believe as you do, what you’ve learned, etc.
-Stephen
August 13, 2008 at 11:45 am
I forgot to add: If a God wanted us to make a choice, why would he present both cases? It makes it feel that much more like some cruel and twisted game/mind job. “I want to see if you’ll choose me, so here are your choices. Live or die, the choice is yours.” Jigsaw, anyone? lol. (Reference to the Saw movies if you’ve never seen any of them) It’s just like… man, how much would you feel that someone loved you back if you gave them the choice of everlasting life or eternal damnation and they chose everlasting life? OF COURSE they’re not going to choose eternal damnation! Who the heck would!? Ah, but lets obfuscate it even MORE and make it DIFFICULT to make that choice! After all, if you’re going to CHOOSE everlasting life, you have to WORK for it! Now that makes sense but even still, the resounding echoes of eternal damnation seems to be the motivator for many believers; NOT the reward or the love of their God. That’s how I feel and ended up feeling when I was a believer.
-Stephen
August 13, 2008 at 11:51 am
Re-reading what I just wrote, I then surmise that perhaps that’s EXACTLY how the God of Christianity intends it to be! The number of people who could use the love of God as their motivator, not feel the fear of eternal damnation and truly have faith in the face of all logic and adversity is surely an infinitesimal number when compared to the total number of people to have ever walked this earth thus far. (Well… since the birth of Christianity, anyway)
-Stephen
August 13, 2008 at 1:36 pm
“Where did the breakdown occur for you? At mass? The priest molested you?”
David,
Stop with the molesting priest question. More kids are molested by public school teachers than priests. If someone dropped out of school, my first question would not be, “Did you get molested?”
So…did anyone here drop out of school?
Timotheus
August 13, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Tim,
Point taken. I have found that many of those claiming to be ‘former’ Christians who have begun the spiral into full blown atheism have come from the Catholic tradition; not that we couldn’t blame others as well.
Welcome back, TIMOTHEUS!
~David
August 13, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Stephen,
I’m digesting your posts and find them very interesting. I can see your thought processes in your posts- you’re alot like me. Give me some time, I’d love to give this my full attention. Here’s the funny thing: it seems to me that you and I have some of the same ideas regarding modern Christianity, much of which wouldn’t be recognized by the early church founders. Thanks for sharing. As Glen would say…”I’m ruminating!”
~David
August 14, 2008 at 10:05 am
David,
It’s good to be back….you have been busy here..Wow! Keep up the good work; you show way more patience with these guys than I would. We agree on more than disagree, so my point was made in good spirit. God has been good and that I can always prove!
I have been away badgering Lottie and her “souless-mate”, Mike lately.
Timotheus
September 16, 2008 at 11:56 am
David,
How’s it going lately? I hope you are doing well.
Today’s thought:
Some people can look at a beautiful painting, tell you in amazing detail the paints used, color interaction, the quality of the canvas used, the content of the subject, the emotion conveyed, etc.
But when you ask them who painted it, the atheist answers, “No one.”
Timotheus
September 16, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Tim! Good to see your post. I actually thought you had vanished after Lottie’s edifying post about you the other day. Couldn’t help but wonder, “WTH”.. what the heck?
I like the example you use in your ‘today’s thought’. Very true. I believe atheism takes way more faith than what I have!! Design implies a designer, no? Some will never believe and we know that. I’ve learned to state facts and let the chips fall where they may.
Take care!
(by the way, do you have a blog? or are you a blogger with no home?)
September 16, 2008 at 2:34 pm
David,
She had a plus-size meltdown. I actually posted a compliment on her son’s blog when he befriended someone at school and she thought I was making fun of him ( I really wasn’t). She then proceeded to blacklist me so I could not respond.
I also had made a wisecrack about Obama’s breathalizer proposal for kids and that was it…she went berserk. I thought she would find it amusing. Now I am accused of attacking her son…I’d hate to be one of the teachers at those PTA meetings.
Timotheus
September 17, 2008 at 9:11 am
David,
An atheist using a Bible verse is like Orson Welles teaching a yoga class.
Timotheus
September 24, 2008 at 11:32 am
i believe theres a god…i just dont believe IN him. some people need to stop using religion as a crutch. in my personal opinion, the existence of god/jesus/whatever is like a unsourced paper: if u can get me any other first-person sources besides the bible, then u might have a chance of converting me.
dont blame george just because he was able to see past the b.s.
September 25, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Timotheus:
Defining “The Word” with “The Word” is like defining a word with the word itself; pointless.
“How do you know that what the bible says is true? Because the bible says so.”
“Jump: To jump up and down.”
I like your painting analogy but you’re a stereotypical believer to the extent of taking all that is good and beautiful into consideration while ignoring injustice, atrocity, and everything in your book of truth that contradictorily juxtaposes both views. You are equally as ignorant (not stupid; ignorant) as those you make your snide and holier-than-thou comments to.
You see, to an Agnostic, believers and atheists are one in the same in their fanatical and unrealistic opinions. You KNOW there’s a God and they KNOW there isn’t. Atheists use rationale and you use emotion. Atheists believe the emotions are an extention of the brain (which they are) and believers believe that what they feel is something separate altogether. The fact of the matter is that NEITHER of you KNOW (too often I see people like you, Timotheus, pushing your belief around as if it is factual) and to act elitest about your belief makes you appear no less fanatical and irrational as your counterpart.
Timotheus, you seem so full of useless prattle. You have all these clever and witty little sayings that imply you are somehow the enlightened one who will be devoid of eternal damnation. All I’ve got to say is if you believe in a God that would choose you and your holier-than-thou attitude over a non-believer who seeks much further and wider to be a little more – no, scratch that; a LOT more accepting than you and with MUCH more conviction and inner turmoil than you may ever experience, then yes; I believe you are equally as delusional as anyone who purports to know as fact that something either happens or doesn’t after death.
I absolutely cannot WAIT for Religulous to come out. I hope you will watch it, Timotheus. http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/
Sometimes, I think people continue to believe not because they know, but because they can’t fathom having invested so much time and effort into believing only to even TRY to accept any other rationale, belief, etc. Either that, or the power trip religion allows people to go on feels too good to let go of. What could be more fun than telling someone who thinks logically and rationally that they’re feeble-minded and hellbound because they don’t believe in something that you seem to have no clue of is full of irrational and illogical expectations/circumstances? Quit believing that the bible is the only source for morals and ethics and start reading into what you claim is the truth!
Yes, I am an Agnostic (far from an Atheist, my friend). Do you want to know what I believe? I believe that the truth could quite possibly lie within the middlegrounds between the extremities of all sides of rationale and belief. Belief and rationale CAN exist together. Some people believe in themselves and their abilities and they use their rationale to reach a dream or a goal.
I believe religion needs to be eradicated. You seem like a man of quotes, Timotheus, so here’s one that you have probably seen but I feel is amazingly applicable from Thomas Jefferson: “Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith.”
Any belief that forces a person to live their life feeling worthless and as though they have to CONSTANTLY be thankful to a specific God is nothing more than a form of mind control and most of you believers are the suckers falling for it. Systems devised YEARS ago have transcended into this age of rationale and technology and what has it done? Fueled wars and fueled the supposed moral backbones of countries. Sure, those who claim themselves to be a part of religion might say religion has done good for individuals and other purposes, but it’s time to WAKE UP and learn to SHARE.
Religion is equal to racism. It fuels wars, rivalries, and hatred amongst people. Religion drives people away. Sure, you feel all happy and joyous when you go to church and celebrate in your fellowship and leave all that is unexplainable to you in the hands of God and God’s plan but there is MUCH MORE going on in this world than you can grasp. Belief makes many people lazy and it makes them decide to leave things up to God where human intervention may very well just be what is needed.
Anyway, I know I’m going on a rant here and I could go on and on and on and on but I sick and tired of people like you, Timotheus, acting so high and mighty when you are no flippin’ better than those you seem to think you’re better than. You seem to take joy out of the fact that someone was greatly offended by you and even though you say it’s due to a misunderstanding, you certainly don’t seem to feel a bit bad about it. Good for you. I’m sure God would just LOVE to have you next to him for kissing his butt your whole life while joyfully sitting around talking about how stupid Lottie was for taking what you said wrong. How could she POSSIBLY be allowed to think for a second that your intentions weren’t malicious, Timotheus!? Hmm, now I just wonder…
Timotheus, bring something to the table besides your unoriginal witty quotations and holier-than-thou attitude and we’ll talk. Otherwise, please do YOURSELF a favor and keep your face buried in scripture. And no, an Atheist using a Bible verse is NOT like Orson Wells teaching a yoga class. An Atheist using a Bible verse is like a mathematician using a formula to help solve a seemingly irrational postulate… especially when those positing are using the very same formula to try to prove said postulate.
See? You’re implying that because you’re a believer, you somehow UNDERSTAND the bible more than an Atheist. Assuming how an Atheist has come to their beliefs (or lack thereof) is a major flaw on your behalf but such is one of the many luxuries of the ignorance your believe allows you! The individuals do not matter; only their belief. It’s binary to you; 1 or 0. Heaven or hell. Believer or Atheist. In a world chock full of color and beauty, what doesn’t add up to people like me is how you can believe in something so black and white. Forgive me for not believing that it isn’t possible for there to be anything from absolutely nothing to something out there much greater and more truthful than your belief. How ignorant and truly stupid of me!
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; I do not aspire to live my life to take part in a heaven that I supposedly cannot fathom when there is so much to love, cherish, and appreciate right here. Likewise, your hell doesn’t scare me. If your God wants drones for people to join him in heaven who were forced to love him or else, then he can have them. Ask yourself; As a father figure, would you tell your child to do as you say, not as you do and that they better love you until they die or else and truly believe that they would then love you because of how great you are? I mean, “here’s a nice picture, son. I drew this beautiful picture.” Yeah, that’s great, but what about the ugly stuff on the other side?
Oh yeah… Satan. God, Satan. Good, evil. Heaven, hell. Black, white. Let’s not forget about the ambiguity of the unexplainable and attribute ALL of that to your God as well! “God exists because God is unexplainable and here’s all this other unexplainable… stuff. That’s from God.”
Look, your God may be great to you but your God is certainly is an a-hole to a lot of other people on this earth who would be much more deserving of salvation than you. Trust me, I’m sure that with something as great as heaven, there are people who would appreciate it much more than you ever would. What makes you more deserving of heaven than someone who was unjustly slaughtered pre-Christianity who lived their life beforehand as a good person? I guess the answer to that lies in that same ambiguous place where you throw all other intangibles, huh? Man, I wish I had the ability to just ignore everything that didn’t make sense. It would make belief a whole lot easier, I’ll tell you that much.
-Stephen
PS – Hi, David. =) Sorry I was gone for awhile but I’m back (lengthy posts and all)!
September 25, 2008 at 1:01 pm
*Doh* A few typos in there, forgive me.
-Stephen
September 26, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Rob,
We have historical accounts and eyewitness accounts of God’s wonder from over 25 authors spanning over 2000 years- we call it the Bible.
For some reason, we (as a society) only deem the Bible an unrelavent religious rulebook, but the fact it’s still in existence after all these years should tell you something about the truths contained therein.
What else could you possibly need to see to believe? God’s revealed himself in His creation, in nature, in clouds, fire, wind, a soft voice and pillar of fire (Old Testament), in person (Jesus- New Testament) and even in our everyday lives (God’s common grace to all people- i.e. the fact that you can even breathe and have life).
There’s plenty of proof to be seen, Rob. I don’t understand believing there is a God and not believing IN God. How can that work?
September 26, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Stephen,
Thanks for coming back by. I need to take more time to read your stuff, man. I’ve been slammed. Forgive me… I’ll get back..
September 26, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Stephen,
I will say that some people are hypersensitive and unless you’ve read this whole thread, you might not understand… Perhaps you have… re: Tim’s ‘misunderstanding’ with the president of my fan club.
September 26, 2008 at 3:47 pm
http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+John+5%3A13
We know.
September 29, 2008 at 10:58 am
Hey David. =)
Oh, I absolutely understand the hypersensitivity of people! Get this… To acknowledge the existence and possibility of hypersensitivity is to willfully disregard any “negative” attributes and/or repercussions associated if you choose to act in a manner that will not bode well for the hypersensitive. That’s fine if someone is like that, but all of the wit, sarcasm, and “best/true intentions” in the world won’t cover up the fact that someone is essentially being intentionally, well, “mean,” to be politically correct. True, we often do not know who is going to be hypersensitive to what and when, but if it happens, that’s when we discern who points the finger and acts nonchalant from those who actually care enough to choose to react in a positive, understanding, and – dare I say – apologetic manner. That being said, sometimes, we just want to be snide and unforgiving. I’ve never been one for holding Christians to the whole, “you’re supposed to be nice and forgiving” thing, because proselytization via fearmongering means of declaring the possibility of eternal damnation after death in and of itself lacks forgiveness and nicety. I know the “forgiveness and nicety” part comes from salvation and accepting Jesus and all, but for the people who don’t believe it (for whatever reason), you’re ultimately going to appear holier-than-thou and offensive, not forgiving and nice. I get that. Most people don’t. You should get it too… from both sides of the coin.
I guess believers who evangelize and proselytize might consider as such their gift and their curse, and of course, the gift far outweighs the curse to you. Who cares how many of who you upset when you believe you’re pleasing the one and only top priority in your life? I’ve said this to other believers before and I’ll say it here; for you to even imply that you know or believe I am going to end up in a place of eternal torture and damnation when I die provides room for you to be judgmental. One of the major paradoxes that came to me as an epiphany when I was a believer was the notion of not being judgmental while at the same time passing a form of judgment on those I was evangelizing and proselytizing to.
Anyway, I absolutely cannot stand people like Timotheus who are apparently extremely well-versed in their interpretation and understanding of the bible to pass holy judgment on to people with “wise words” and witty commentary while ignoring and cleverly evading any and all worthy points to the contrary of his belief. Sure, you may be able to refute X number of claims, but sometimes, a simple, “that is an interesting point” can go a LONG way. Additionally, crap like, “you’re spelling is horrible” adds absolutely NOTHING of value to discussions like this and are merely demeaning measures to help annoy and ultimately ward off the people who present any sort of information to the contrary of what he speaks/believes… and then, to top it off, he grounds his victory flag with comments like, “ah, typical Atheist to give up when the pressure gets too tough!” No, it’s not the typical Atheist, Tim. It’s the typical person who lacks the patience to deal with your snide fluff in between your would-be intelligent remarks.
With a book as vast as the bible, it can be interpreted, tweaked, and leveraged to suit the side of ANY argument. As an Agnostic who was raised Southern Baptist and truly interested in and in love with Christianity when I was a believer, I can attest to that statement now being on both sides of the coin. When reading the bible for face-value, it is both absolutely absurd and chock-full of valuable moral lessons. It is epic in that it progresses from one extremity to the next. Read Genesis, then read Revelation. The extremity of Genesis with creation and God commanding genocide, promoting slavery and the oppression of women to the extremity of Revelation with its neverending, foreboding symbolism.
The bible is definitely a fascinating read, but it is ultimately text written by man and loosely translated today. The obfuscation of realism and symbolism allows for people to interpret the bible from the way they’re taught, to the way they personally perceive, to the way they actually choose to. It is for this very reason alone that the bible is one of the most amazing creations of man! It has transcended time and translation. It is both difficult to refute and prove because of its intricate passages and contradictory. If the bible were a human being, it would be a person full of every characteristic we are all capable of; everything from intense love to intense anger to fantasy, dreams, symbolism, and everything in between!
With SO MUCH to study these days, how just about any Atheist or person of faith can be so judgmental and so sure of themselves absolutely astounds me. I’ve already written in vast detail (see previous posts) why I absolutely do not want anything to do with the God of Christianity (hint: it’s NOT because I’m some sinner who wants to go out and bang everything that walks while murdering people and cheating people for every penny) but being Agnostic, I don’t find it outside the realm of reason (yes, reason) to consider the potential for there to be a creator/God/higher power/what have you.
The existence of a God does not come into mind with all that I know to be (including the unexplainable things that exist on this planet and in our universe that I am aware of). Yes, I do find validity in the big bang theory (hence, many of the scientific theories chronologically occuring thereafter), but it’s prior to the big bang theory that has me puzzled. Whether it’s a God or the notion of multi-verses, it makes absolutely no sense to me that we would be made to know the very same God who created all of that through something as inane as the bible. I mean, you want to point out to a non-believer all that is amazing and supposedly created yet tell people that to make sense of it all, they have to believe in the bible?
Like I said, the bible is chock-full of both the good and the bad but ethics and morals need to be separated from religion. BADLY. I know plenty of people who have been raised beliefless, as were their parents, and they are some of the most stand-up people I know. Evidence of good people not believing in the heaven/hell stuff in the bible goes back well beyond our comprehension, but just for the sake of mentioning it, let’s take into account a few of our founding fathers (for those of you reading who are American). Have any of you studied into Thomas Jefferson? He was a Deist who marveled at the beauty of nature and life, as well as the teachings of Jesus, but never once agreed with the hellfire and brimstone or a God who would expect people to blindly follow him without exercising logic. Because of that, he created the Jeffersonian bible. It strips the bible of its fantasy and damnation and places front and center all of the morals and ethics contained within it. Sure, that’s more than likely considered heresy to a Christian, but to an Agnostic such as myself, it does what I feel needs to be done; separates the morals/ethics/values in the bible from the religion.
Like I’ve said before, I am familiar with the emotional connection and feeling of connecting with “God,” but where I used to attribute it to the God of Christianity, I am an Agnostic and I still feel that feeling from time to time but more now than ever, I truly feel at peace… and that peace does include the fact that I believe it may just be that of merely an emotion and I will indeed die and that will be it. If there is something more, I am excited to find out as I can’t imagine being condemned to a hell being the person that I know I am inside. Timotheus, faith is not a gift. It is a choice and at that, a choice only made by the people who are made aware of it. “God” does not choose who to give that gift to. If you believe that, then you have managed to COMPLETELY do away with freewill and your efforts to berate non-believers simply equte to you acknowledging you’re ultimately being a snide jackass. Then again, your statement of God choosing who receives the supposed gift of faith makes complete sense when you think of all the people in third world countries who live terrible lives and die just the same, so… you may very well just be on to something there! Some gift, huh? How convenient. No wonder you’re thankful if you believe on those terms, and if you’re not, you should be. Again, great God you believe in there. I will maintain my abstinence.
I may not know the scriptures like the most astute believers and I may not know the theories of the most astute non-believers, but I certainly have done – and will continue to do – my fair share of extensive searching to continue learning. Yes, I am completely satisfied with that and to consider life a meaningless and vapid existence without your God is truly astounding to me. There is so much to love, cherish, and be grateful for RIGHT HERE without a God. This is why I don’t feel hellbound, because even being Godless, I am incredibly grateful for life, the people in it and the things I am able to enjoy. I am a musician, an artist, a writer, a photographer, a deep thinker, a hard worker, a person who loves and cherishes his friends and family; sure, I have my flaws but everyone does. To be handed yet another paradox that my freewill was given to me with the stipulations of having to make a choice because of actions by ones Adam and Eve is… well, vapid. The heaven I will supposedly be given under those circumstances if I make “the right choice” seems vapid to me… then again, is it my choice if God chooses who to give the supposed gift of faith to? ROUND AND ROUND WE GO! lol.
Finding joy in life and appreciation and love within my existence HERE has been much more fulfilling than living my life considering it a miserable existence with a vision of everything being happy and good FOREVER when I die. You want to talk about live being vapid without a God, try living your life while considering yourself a sinner and everything within it (including yourself) worthless without your fight for salvation! You may consider it hard work that is going to pay off for you when you die but a God who would prefer someone to live their whole life in such a manner is a God who I absolutely cannot associate with. I enjoy my life and, ironically, it is because of the atrocity and injustice that exists on this planet that also pushes me away from your God. You know… the things that you so easily brush aside in your mind under guise of “God’s plan”. God’s plan? Really? You want to chill out with a God who plans that stuff? Here again, the notion of God having a plan null-and-voids the facade of freewill. When you throw in all these scriptures you know, it’s easy to paint pictures of a great God with a plan but when you close the book and actually open your eyes and allow yourself the room to question the things you don’t for fear of receiving eternal damnation or loss of faith, all of a sudden, science and religion aren’t the conflict anymore and you find yourself within the middlegrounds of both sides of the battlefield. If you think it’s tough being a person of faith or an Atheist, try explain why you’re an Agnostic to BOTH sides. Now THAT is a challenge! lol.
Anyway, that’s my dose for the day. =) I hope all is well with you, David, and I must say that you show to have a bit more of an open mind than your friend Timotheus. While I certainly don’t expect to budge or reshape your faith, at least you’ve been willing to acknowledge points of my before. I’m interested to see what Timotheus thinks and in which method he chooses to berate me when he replies, be it discovering all 10-20 grammatical errors existing within the collection of EVERYTHING I’ve written or how I am nothing more than the dogcrap attached to the bottom of his spiritual shoes. Whatever it may be, I’m ready for it, Timotheus. Better yet, you could shock us all by completely proving me wrong! Either way, I fully trust you will come up with SOME way to make me appear either unintelligent or somehow less than you in all facets of my being and Agnostic “wanderment,” as I’m sure you consider it. Whichever you choose, I know you won’t disappoint and you will be glad to know that I will absolutely follow suit.
-Stephen
September 30, 2008 at 11:50 am
Stephen,
Your posts are of biblical proportions.
Timotheus
September 30, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Stephen,
….your posts are also irreducibly complex which leads me to believe they were created by a highly intelligent creator. On the other hand, you may want to convince me that your post could have been created by a chimp randomly tapping on a keyboard.
Timotheus
September 30, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Timotheus,
I guess that’s the problem, huh? You believe my “irreducibly complex” posts are the results of being created by a God. How is that any less ridiculous than you find evolution to be?
Look, I don’t know enough about evolution to fight for or against it at the moment (though I am studying it as intensely as I have religion up to this point)… but let’s assume for a second that I did and I fought for it. Let’s say I provided all KINDS of rational proof for you spend some time reviewing with an open mind and without the magical thought of random creation. Would you do it? No. Your mind is made up.
I just wish I could get someone like you to FOR ONCE address even just ONE of my posts and the logic I present! You can’t, though. You see, I’m not an Atheist and I’m not a person of faith, though I used to be. I’m not just copying and pasting age-old Atheistic ideas. There is a reason I don’t study Atheistic text. I formulate my own conclusions based on my own rationale. The things I have written here on David’s blog are the things that make your religion not add up to me. I would honestly like to see you address post 244 of mine. Every point I made in regards the freewill/choice loopholes. I don’t need scientific theories to tell you I don’t believe what you believe, Timotheus. I’m not throwing evolution in your face as a means of combating your faith because the evolution thing doesn’t even matter to me at this point.
I’m open-minded to answers, man! I’m not trying to shut down the learning and sharing process when I write what I write. Far from it. You are reading my innermost thoughts, Timotheus. You are reading the thoughts of a man who has just as much to give as anyone else… a man who loves life with passion and a man who would love to think that we go on when we die, but I am a realist and I realize that may very well NOT be the case. I’ll leave it at this for now. If you want to attempt to address some of my previous points, please do. If you’re just going to group me in with everyone else you feel is nothing more than a brown stain on the back of your spiritual underwear, then just disregard this whole debate and go enjoy your relationship with your God.
-Stephen
September 30, 2008 at 1:28 pm
And if I could just learn how to type “to,” that would be great… lol.
September 30, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Wow. I had some sort of respect for you, David… and I have been reading these posts for the past hour or so, and then I read this post you made… “At mass? The priest molested you?” and was completely turned off by anything you had to say… Is this the low point people have to hit in order to convince people that religion isn’t working for them?
Carlin would have been able to pull that off well, but I guess that is why he is rotting in hell right now. Not because he believed in basic human rights and fighting against an establishment that often uses religion as an oppressive device, but because he was willing to question a religion used by Constantine in 300 AD in order to oppress a society that didn’t want to embrace him otherwise.
And don’t get me wrong. I want people to embrace God. I want people to have belief in whatever God they choose to believe in in order to make good, moral decisions in life. But, I also want them to realize how constantly religion is used in politics in order to get them to blindly follow rhetoric they will spout out at them, regardless to how it will effect their personal lives in the long run.
And so, instead of asking people, “What if their is a God, and you didn’t believe in him?” I ask people, what if their isn’t a God and you blindly followed selfish people who, as it turned out, were only looking out for themselves? What if their isn’t a God, and you could have spent all this time looking out for those around you who needed you?
If you can’t tell, I am a bit of a humanist. I believe that people should look out for each other, regardless of whether there is or is not a God… and if he denies you in the end, no matter how much good you did for his people, then so be it.
And if he asks that you do nothing more than believe in him… that you can create as many sins as possible on this Earth and at the end of the day genuinely ask forgiveness, but to do as much good as you can and not… Then, to me, that is a selfish God. That is a God, much like a man, who would have a child only to live to be like him.
I respect a man who will have a child that will have different belief than their father… I respect a father that will have a child, not for the sole purpose in looking up to him, but that will entrust his child to make his own decisions in life, regardless of what his father has to say.
That a man like Gandhi can go to Hell, but a man like Jeffery Dahmer will go to Heaven, then I guess I’ll hang out with Gandhi in hell.
September 30, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Oh, and by the way Stephen, the reason Timotheous has answered you in the way he has is because either doesn’t seem to have an answer, or he can’t wrap his head around your ideas. Another religious wall… But why break down a wall when you can just build another? Isn’t that the mentality?
October 1, 2008 at 7:41 am
Stephen,
You say you love life. If someone offered you eternal life, would you be interested?
Timotheus
October 1, 2008 at 8:14 am
Brett,
Thanks for stopping by and reading my posts (and everyone else’s). Things got pretty heated here about 3 months ago, but have since settled. If you read, you probably saw lots of nonsense statements from a slew of folks. I think the thing to keep in mind is that there is a God. How else would there be a basic sense of morality in society? Anyway, as to my comments about priests, mass, etc… this all stems from the experiences of some of my friends who hated the church and God for years because of abuse in the Catholic church. On a lighter note, I believe the Catholic church teaches a works-based salvation and a works-based preservation of that salvation. I.e God saves you and keeps you IF you do x, y or z. “If you sin, you go to hell. Period. Unless we can get a priest to pray over you in time.” This is not the true freedom in Christ that the apostle Paul talked about in his letters. I believe many who have tried, tried and tried to be ‘good enough’ and have ‘failed’ are put off to the very idea of God. Our friend Lottie spoke of the time when she was a ‘former believer’ and how she never felt good enough. I’m not sure if this was at a Catholic church or not, but the issue is the same. This is abuse of scripture. This is incorrect interpretation of the Bible and an unhealthy view of our Creator and Savior.
So, when I made those comments, I was trying to get at the heart of why there was so much angst toward God.
Same thing with Stephen. He’s a great guy and a fairly accomplished musician!!! (My kind of guy!!) But somehow, his church experience (Arminian, no doubt, by reading his bio) burned him to the point of “Why try anymore?” When churches teach works-based righteousness, the result is always the same.
I hope my comments didn’t throw you off kilter too bad. They were intended to disarm and cut to the reasons for hostility. Thanks for stopping by. Chime in any time!
~David
p.s. Stephen… I’m halfway through your writings… actually printing them and taking them home..
October 1, 2008 at 9:15 am
@ Brett: Unfortunately, I’m becoming all too familiar with those types of responses (or lack thereof). It’s unfortunate and frustrating. I don’t just find myself banging my head against the wall, I find myself banging my head against wall after wall after wall after wall… and how do you topple such walls when reasonable logic and valid questions won’t suffice? I’m trying really hard to figure that out.
@ Timotheus: If I said “no” to you and your offer, SOLELY based on how you have represented your faith on this page alone, what would you say? Better yet, what if I said “no,” told you I was incredibly familiar with your religion, and offered you a HIGHLY detailed and logical explanation as to why. Would you be interested? Oh, wait… you wouldn’t. I already tried that.
@ David: I feel I need to clarify that prior to reaching Agnosticism, there was a period of time where I engaged in self-study sans any religious interference or participation. It was through that time that I felt the strongest connection with what I perceived at the time to be a God, but I wasn’t reading the bible with an open and critical mind. I didn’t mind that God said homosexuality is a sin and the passages of genocide, oppression of women, and slavery didn’t equate in my head to being as truly dramatic and drastic as they are! As I’ve gotten older and I’ve experienced the things I have regarding religion and its VERY NEGATIVE effects on humanity and the world (long gone are the days of Mother Teresa; these days, it’s all about wars and jihads).
There were times where I felt I should rely on God, and I used to to a degree. Now, there are times where I would have turned things over to the God I used to believe in, but I don’t. I fend for myself. I take care of myself. I also help take care of those close to me. I don’t rely on a God who would let all the negative things happen that happen around this world. As I’ve noted in a previous response, I really would prefer such a